Live data from Hacker News

Rats free each other from cages (2011)

nature.com

131–140 of 173 posts

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#131
post #19

My perception for watching the video is that the cage opener wants to mate with the rat inside once it is free. At least mount it. If there are from opposites sexes, there is certainly an egoistical reason for the rat to free the other. If they are not, rats are very sociable. They need close contact with other rats. It also looks like the opener rat is also very curious and wants to enter the cage too to know how it…

That was my perception as well: the rat immediately tried to mount the rat that had been trapped. My issue is not with the results of the study, but with interpretation. I think it's possible to explain the desire to free the other rat purely in selfish terms without any nods to altruistic or empathic behavior.

Reproduction is not selfish. It's for species survival.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#132
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my perception as well: the rat immediately tried to mount the rat that had been trapped. My issue is not with the results of the study, but with interpretation. I think it's possible to explain the desire to free the other rat purely in selfish terms without any nods to altruistic or empathic behavior.

Reproduction is not selfish. It's for species survival.

The rat doesn't know that...

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#133
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reproduction is not selfish. It's for species survival.

The rat doesn't know that...

The rat doesn't (necessarily) know it's selfless to free the other rather. He's acting on instinct. That's the question at hand:are these moral instincts, are they a shared trait with people's.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#134

I find it odd that anyone able to cage rats for days in that cruel way is going to be able to identify any kind of empathy at all. How can you identify empathy if you don't even feel it? I guess this is how humans progress but I can't help feeling something wrong with it.

> How can you identify empathy if you don't even feel it? I can detect wind (including its strength and direction) outside my house even if I can't feel it.

You have a point but what I was trying to express is the irony of the experiment. To see if animals have empathy we basically torture them and see how they react...

Call it empathy or whatever but I know I suffer under certain situations and can't see why a rat does not. They have 2 eyes and four limbs just like us maybe just a little bit less computing power.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#135
post #125
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You gave an interesting explanation of what morality is and where it originates (in your opinion). However, that's besides the point. Even if morality was just herd instinct, what you were saying previously is that suffering for you is not immoral. And even though, many intelligent people saw absolutely nothing wrong with torture, what about you, right now? What I'm getting at is that your original statement which ba…

You seem to be constructing an argument like "if suffering is not immoral, then you must also think that torture is moral". That's a straw-man argument. It is a perfectly valid position to assert that inflicting suffering is morally wrong while at the same time rejecting that all suffering is morally wrong. When someone says that something is not immoral (or evil), they can be arguing to things: either it is moral, o…

That just suffering by itself is not immoral is quite obvious. We were talking about _inflicting suffering_ the whole time. And, to be even more precise, about knowingly inflicting suffering by human beings. Therefore all the questions you stated are besides the point.

Now it seems the next argument that will come is that we as human beings are also animals and part of nature, and therefore we can also kill other animals as e.g. lions do.

Well, a female mantis occasionally decapitates its male mates after copulation. Does that mean that it is moral for women to do the same to men? Amezarak's original statement is just too broad.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Is this how 'people in general work' >Yes. Well, that was a quick 'discussion'! Glad you came along! Thanks for the downvote!

> Well, that was a quick 'discussion'! Glad you came along! You're welcome! The discussion of how there is an impulse for people to get upset and defensive when told they're wrong, and how it impedes learning, is very well established. It's not worth wasting time on a weird side argument about it. The answer is just 'yes, that happens a lot'. Edit: > Thanks for the downvote! Hey, feel free to continue with the rest o…

>The discussion of how there is an impulse for people to get upset and defensive when told they're wrong, and how it impedes learning, is very well established. It's not worth wasting time on a weird side argument about it. The answer is just 'yes, that happens a lot'.

What the hell? I guess that's what I must have been talking about! Thanks for informing me of what I was talking about! I totally agree that "people to get upset and defensive when told they're wrong, and how it impedes learning"; I'm experiencing it right now! Of course, now that you've shaped the discussion toward your end, I won't even try to have a 'conversation' with you.

>Hey, feel free to continue with the rest of the conversation without me. I'm not going to judge. I'm only going to snip at weird unproductive semi-insulting tangents

With unproductive semi-insulting tangents; it's almost like-- ah, sorry, everything is suddenly illuminated. Carry on.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#137
post #19

My perception for watching the video is that the cage opener wants to mate with the rat inside once it is free. At least mount it. If there are from opposites sexes, there is certainly an egoistical reason for the rat to free the other. If they are not, rats are very sociable. They need close contact with other rats. It also looks like the opener rat is also very curious and wants to enter the cage too to know how it…

Male rats where less likely than female rats to start opening cages.

There is a huge tendency to build up story around a single video, but this is a repeated experiment with far more evidence than shown.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere did I claim that pigs ought to be treated as humans. For that matter, nowhere did I say you shouldn't eat that cow. Why are you trying to imply that I did? Your thought experiment ignores a lot of established facts, like the neurological structural similarities between, say, pigs and humans. Both have amygdalae, both have periaqueductal grey, both have similar pain avoidance behaviours. Why not assume that pi…

Well, since humans are conscious and are able to communicate with each other clearly, we can tell pretty well what it means for a human to feel pain. It's far less clear what it means for a pig. But if you believe that humans and pigs feel pain in a very similar or basically identical manner, then what justification can you have to eat pigs and cause them that pain that you think they feel?

>>If my similarities to you in both physicality and reaction are not enough to convince you I feel pain, why are my words enough? And if they are, if I build a deep belief network which says "ouch, fuck" every time it encounters a penalty in its stimuli and says "awesome" every time it maximizes its reward function, does it follow that we now have to treat it as if it's human?

>Well, since humans are conscious and are able to communicate with each other clearly, we can tell pretty well what it means for a human to feel pain

Why is this? Why not assume other humans are philosophical zombies[0]? Again, if I can build some dumb machine to say "ouch", lacking all other known physiological correlates to pain (like structures involved in processing pain, withdrawing from 'painful' stimuli, vocalizing sharply when in 'pain'), why isn't it in pain?

>what justification can you have to eat pigs and cause them that pain that you think they feel?

I don't care enough. I eat meat because it's tasty! That doesn't mean I can't try to ensure the things I eat live mildly fulfilling lives before their mostly pain-free deaths. I try to buy meat from places like this [1] because while I want to eat meat and see nothing wrong with it, there's a huge difference between a chicken who has been able to wander about and have a chickeny social network and eat bugs (even if its world is a big open-air warehouse barn) and a chicken who has spent most of its short fat life in a small dark cage. I don't follow this principle all the time, or I'd be restricted from fast food, eating out with friends, etc. I imagine anyone who buys cheap clothes but abhors sweatshops, or who buys consumer electronics but is made uncomfortable by rare-earth mining practices and Foxconn working conditions, or who pays taxes but objects to some horror the government perpetrates with the money, knows what I'm talking about.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

[1] http://rowefarms.ca/our-farming-philosophies.php

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, since humans are conscious and are able to communicate with each other clearly, we can tell pretty well what it means for a human to feel pain. It's far less clear what it means for a pig. But if you believe that humans and pigs feel pain in a very similar or basically identical manner, then what justification can you have to eat pigs and cause them that pain that you think they feel?

>>If my similarities to you in both physicality and reaction are not enough to convince you I feel pain, why are my words enough? And if they are, if I build a deep belief network which says "ouch, fuck" every time it encounters a penalty in its stimuli and says "awesome" every time it maximizes its reward function, does it follow that we now have to treat it as if it's human? >Well, since humans are conscious and ar…

Sorry, you are losing me. You on the one hand claim that animals feel pain similarly to humans and in general that animals are similar to humans , yet on the other hand say that it's ok to eat meat because it's tasty, despite the your own claim that eating meat will cause those animals pain ? That seems like a bankrupt moral philosophy. I don't think animals feel anything like what humans feel, which is why I think it's ok to eat meat. But certainly if I'm ever proven wrong, that would be reason enough to stop eating meat.

I also don't think the parallel with cheap clothes or mining practices works. I mean with meat you can simply stop eating it with relatively little effort on your part. With clothes or products it is simply not realistic to try to avoid all poorly produced products on the shelf

Post reply on HN