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Rats free each other from cages (2011)

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41–50 of 173 posts

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#41
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hah, as if the abuse would stop with that acknowledgement. its beyond unlikely that we, as the human race, become vegetarian. as such, we'll never stop abusing other animals beside us. on that note: i'm not a vegetarian either, nor am i planning to become one.

I'm curious, could you kill an animal and cut it up? Do you realize you pay people to do this every time you buy meat? Are you cool with that?

No, I couldn't do it. Too disgusting. Yes, I do realize that's what I'm paying for. It's expensive but then I don't have to do the icky part. I'm cool with it.

I watched a video of a guy jabbing a cow with a pitchfork. It was pretty shitty. I think you could withhold any violence until the animal's final moments. That gets into realities of industrial efficiency and not the eating of meat. Things die. Should we cremate them? I realize going vegetarian solves the problem right now. That doesn't mean that eating meat is necessarily a part of the problem. I eat out a lot so I don't get all my meat from one source. But the meat I use at home I buy from a friend of my family. He raises the cows himself and "loves" them. My sister likes to go out there and feed them. It's a bit too mushy for me but I still like to think their happiness makes them taste better.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#42
post #38
post #9

I feel certain that in the near future we will discover animals are a lot smarter and more emotionally developed than we currently realize, and future generations will look back on our treatment of them with disgust.

If an animal can't communicate complex thought, he is just an animal. No matter how "smart" or "emotionally developed" they appear. Until then it's just instinct. And if the day ever arrives, it can just be seen as an evolutionary step for the species, and not as proof that they where intelligent all along.

Yeah, people seem to want to decrease the degree of separation between humans and animals. The scientists probably reach a bit in their conclusions, for many reasons, and readers seem to me they may have some latent desire to bring humans and animals closer together, like they want a grand unifying law of life and ethics or maybe a link to our past and how consciousness evolved which could mean we have more reason to treat animals more like equals. I get it, that all seems good and fine. But looking at the general evidence I still conclude there is a huge difference between animals and people. And I think the results of experiments don't change anything, regardless of what they find we should respect animals even though they're "just animals".

I liked the experience vs awareness model presented in Stumbling Upon Happiness where people think about the future (awareness of what's happening to them/others) and animals simply operate in the moment based on instincts and being informed by memories (experience). I think that is a pretty good model for the difference.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#44
post #9

I feel certain that in the near future we will discover animals are a lot smarter and more emotionally developed than we currently realize, and future generations will look back on our treatment of them with disgust.

...and then we'll all take a look at the animal kingdom and see that Chimps and Dolphins and all sorts of species treat each other - and other species - with innate brutality, and realize this planet is simply one giant cage match.

If animals are more intelligent then we think, it really puts the chimp and dolphin behavior in a new light.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#45
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hah, as if the abuse would stop with that acknowledgement. its beyond unlikely that we, as the human race, become vegetarian. as such, we'll never stop abusing other animals beside us. on that note: i'm not a vegetarian either, nor am i planning to become one.

I'm curious, could you kill an animal and cut it up? Do you realize you pay people to do this every time you buy meat? Are you cool with that?

I have, and it's not really a big deal.

Humans and many other great apes are opportunistic carnivores. The idea that we should have moral compunctions about biological reality seems absurd to me, and I have yet heard any argument than "suffering is evil; animals experience suffering; killing animals necessitates their suffering; therefore eating animals is evil." I don't deny the second proposition, I deny the first, and my personal feeling is the reason some of us now feel differently has much to do with the enormously sheltered and privileged lives modernity has afforded us.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#46
post #38
post #9

I feel certain that in the near future we will discover animals are a lot smarter and more emotionally developed than we currently realize, and future generations will look back on our treatment of them with disgust.

If an animal can't communicate complex thought, he is just an animal. No matter how "smart" or "emotionally developed" they appear. Until then it's just instinct. And if the day ever arrives, it can just be seen as an evolutionary step for the species, and not as proof that they where intelligent all along.

Define 'complex', and 'communicate'. Are deaf and blind people "just animals", no matter how -your quotes- "smart" or "emotionally developed" they appear?

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#47
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hah, as if the abuse would stop with that acknowledgement. its beyond unlikely that we, as the human race, become vegetarian. as such, we'll never stop abusing other animals beside us. on that note: i'm not a vegetarian either, nor am i planning to become one.

I'm curious, could you kill an animal and cut it up? Do you realize you pay people to do this every time you buy meat? Are you cool with that?

> I'm curious, could you kill an animal and cut it up?

Done that on several occasions.

> Do you realize you pay people to do this every time you buy meat?

Yes.

> Are you cool with that?

Yes. Because, essentially, we are animals.

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#48
post #38
post #9

I feel certain that in the near future we will discover animals are a lot smarter and more emotionally developed than we currently realize, and future generations will look back on our treatment of them with disgust.

If an animal can't communicate complex thought, he is just an animal. No matter how "smart" or "emotionally developed" they appear. Until then it's just instinct. And if the day ever arrives, it can just be seen as an evolutionary step for the species, and not as proof that they where intelligent all along.

how do you define "communicate" though? Does it involve you interpreting or understanding the animal's communication?

Re: Rats free each other from cages (2011)

#50
post #9

I feel certain that in the near future we will discover animals are a lot smarter and more emotionally developed than we currently realize, and future generations will look back on our treatment of them with disgust.

Just as we have Seed Banks in the world, I believe we ought to have Animal Arks. These are very large open habitats with difficult to pass barriers. Little human involvement is permitted and trespassing carries an instantaneous death penalty.

I see this as the only plausible way to prevent the disappearance of Rhino, Elephant, Cheetah and many other animals that you had plastic toys of when you were a child. Those animals are going to be as extinct as the dinosaurs toys you played with in our lifetime.

https://xkcd.com/1338/

We have very little biodiversity in Europe, outside of our domestic animals the typical country has nothing much larger than foxes or squirrels running around. Conservation is a patriotic planet wide duty for humans and it is one of the few things that ought to go over traditional rivalries. I do not accept for example, that Africans, South Americans or Southeast Asians have the right to demolish important species because they are within their political territories. There is no moral reason not to simply extract them from there using a combination of carrot and stick since they are clearly incapable of handling the problem themselves at this stage of development, just as Europeans were back in the 1700s not exactly looking out for the plight of endangered wolves, boars or bears.

Most major insights into biology and medicine come from having a variety of species around. So it is not as if we have no self interest. Ultimately any 'Arks' would be easily repaid for millions of times over in a variety of ways, even if just because you would ultimately be the only available source of rare biomaterials.

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