Is there possibly more to this story? As it stands it looks like the interns made a polite request and fired for it. I understand the "intern is a guest" argument, but he/she is also a future employee playing that part and would like to be treated as such. If any polite request is countered by firing I can't imagine that will be a good place to work.
A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request. I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never even conceived the idea of doing somethin…
Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
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Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fascist? really, have you ever lived under fascism or dictatorship? This is welcome to the real world kid, infact this should never have happened I don't understand how would anyone over 12 would think that a petition at your workplace could or should work. You don't know what circumstances was she working at, you don't know why they were ordered to wear dress clothes (uniforms are pretty damn good for instilling dis…
Did you even read my comment? I said "Especially if you do not have to deal with customers (of course I understand that companies can have rules when their employees are facing customers that's a totally different story)" And I mean that, it is a totally different story. If employees have to face customers then it's up to the company to decide what kind of image they want to display. The interns in thin case were not…
And yes I have read your comment but it doesn't matter, your job description doesn't have to be customer facing to mandate a dress code, the image of the office especially if there is high foot traffic in it might be important to your employer, the ability to drag employees at will to meetings, pre-sale, video-confs etc which might include external people without needing to worry about what stupid shirt they might wear today is also a good enough reason and overall having an environment where everyone can pick fairly cheap office work/business attire without having to worry about what they wear also makes it comfortable for a lot of people.
Oddly enough the looser dress codes usually go against the direct benefits to employees they are a tool just like the beer fridge, ping pong table and video games room that companies use to remove the gap between your personal life and your work life, they want you to feel that the workplace is an extension of yourself and home is where your bed is when you aren't sleeping in one of the nice sleeping rooms at your work.
Work cloths on the other hand allow you to easily switch between work and your personal life, you put a suit in the morning you go to work, you take it off and boom you are in your saggy tshirt that says I'm with stupid doing whatever you want. So if you are against the workplace invading into your personal space during off work hours you might want to actually rethink what brining your own personal life into your workplace does and why some employers especially in tech encourage that.
Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#93I've never understood the mindset in which something as trivial as what you wear to work actually seems like a big deal.
It's probably a mindset unique to people who have to wear uncomfortable clothes 12 hours a day to fetch coffee for their abusive superiors.
Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
How's the company was excessive? this is the only thing you can do really in this case. She talked to her manager and was stricken down, then she decided to make a petition in order to bully her bosses? She knew exactly what she was doing "oh I don't have much experience in the work force" ehm yeah I'm pretty sure everyone has at least limited understanding of how management works - it's not a democracy, you don't ge…
Because it's not reasonable for a company to fire people who unionize. They could have just said "again, no, you have to follow the dress code".
You can't cave to pointless demands of interns especially after you already said no to them, you don't need to give them a justification when your boss says no arguing continuing on arguing with them is usually pointless unless the circumstances changed.
Passing around a petition to force the hands of your managers would never lead to good results, this isn't about employee rights this isn't about unions this is about young people acting up because likely no one to that point ever said no to them because they were too afraid.
I've seen what happens in schools lately at least in higher education where teachers seem to be afraid of their students rather than the other way around, I somehow feel lucky that I was at the borders of this generation before things went out of head and I remember when being rude to a teach or disruptive in class meant a call to my parents and a whole lot of trouble to me.
We somehow went from standing up when the teacher enters the classroom and showing respect to showing the middle finger and getting angry parents defending their kids because they are special.
We went from higher education being a place of critical thought where people were challenged with multiple views and paradigms to a place of safe spaces where students can rally because a teacher hurts their feeling when they talk about touchy subjects.
It seems that over a few decades we went from a society that aimed for the stars and challenged everything to an infantile group that things that cuddling each other is the most important thing in life because everyone is special in their own way.
And I'm really happy that these for lack of a better word "kids" learned this the hard way and early enough that they might still snap out of it, no one owes you anything not even an explanation, life isn't a democracy at best it's a meritocracy you are valued based on what your actively bring to the table not merely because you exist.
Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
How's the company was excessive? this is the only thing you can do really in this case. She talked to her manager and was stricken down, then she decided to make a petition in order to bully her bosses? She knew exactly what she was doing "oh I don't have much experience in the work force" ehm yeah I'm pretty sure everyone has at least limited understanding of how management works - it's not a democracy, you don't ge…
Because it's not reasonable for a company to fire people who unionize. They could have just said "again, no, you have to follow the dress code".
Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because it's not reasonable for a company to fire people who unionize. They could have just said "again, no, you have to follow the dress code".
This isn't a union this is a petition, a company works because there is a chain of command this is why being fired for insubordination is a thing. You can't cave to pointless demands of interns especially after you already said no to them, you don't need to give them a justification when your boss says no arguing continuing on arguing with them is usually pointless unless the circumstances changed. Passing around a p…
But then amusingly, your plaintive comment on "how things are" quickly turns into an impassioned rant about "how things should be" - which funnily enough is just how things used to be. Maybe you learnt the rules, you did the hard yards, you are just starting to get ahead, and now these upstarts are trying to change the rules.
Your whole argument turns on respecting the power structures of the status quo. It seems so horribly entitled to suggest that because the current power structure of organisations support dictator style management, that one cannot try to find ways to undermine that power structure. Organising, complaining, publicly naming and shaming, are just some of the levers to pull to try to readjust the current power structures in your favour.. and why wouldn't you? What manager respects and rewards quiet acquiescence?
Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't a union this is a petition, a company works because there is a chain of command this is why being fired for insubordination is a thing. You can't cave to pointless demands of interns especially after you already said no to them, you don't need to give them a justification when your boss says no arguing continuing on arguing with them is usually pointless unless the circumstances changed. Passing around a p…
Seems to me you two are arguing (as so many seem to on HN) at cross purposes. One is saying "this is the way the world works", the other is saying "this is the way the world should work". You can acknowledge one, and strive for the other, at the same time. But then amusingly, your plaintive comment on "how things are" quickly turns into an impassioned rant about "how things should be" - which funnily enough is just h…
But companies are not governments, the voice you have in what's going on in the company is tied directly to your value to said company, or if you are an investor then to just how much of the company you actually own but as most employees are not investors and even those who get stock usually get non-voting stock it doesn't matter.
Employees have voices but they do not make the decisions unless they've been granted the permission to do so. Companies with flat structures and lack of hierarchies don't tend to work out, it's very nice when everyone is equal and everyone is their own boss but it also boils to a mess where no one is responsible for anything and people end up doing what they want instead of what the company needs them to do.
If you actually have concerns about the company and you are debating something that would have an actual impact on the companies outlook every good manager would hear you out and take your opinion under advisement.
Discussing company policy which has nothing to do with how would the company perform is a silly battle. Going against the backs of your managers and stirring up trouble is a stupid thing to do and if you are not in a good position to begin with mostly because you do not represent any substantial value to the company you should not be expected to keep your job.
Over 10 years I've oddly enough worked only for 2 employers, the first one I left mostly because the work I did didn't interest me and when they tried to make me offers to stay including starting a new team/department I told them I appreciate it but i don't think that the company should focus on that field (they did it anyway about 3 months after I left and closed up that department after less than 1.5 years), I've been with my current employer for over 6 years.
And I never had problems telling any of my managers (including the CEO) that they are wrong or that something is incorrect but I do form pretty good arguments and I pick my battles if I need to spend 2000$ more on IT gear for everyone of my teammates I rather build a business case around that than pick a fight about the quality of the beans in the coffee machine. (Also quite important is not to only make a good solid argument, is to do so respectfully and not waste their time over nonsense or things that are out of their control in the first place.)
What the woman in the article did was equal to fighting over italian roast, she didn't even made a business case for why the policy should be changed, no she fought a policy by making a list of people that do not want to wear dress shoes.
If anything has failed her here it's her education system that up till now didn't tought her that a petition is worthless, that if you want to something to change you build a position of substance and argue that one.
Instead she probably got through high school where you can make a petition to bully a teacher that dares to teach you matters that make you uncomfortable and then went to college in which the teachers were so afraid of their students that they probably deserve combat pay.
P.S. I don't think that it's fair to equate the current management style of most companies to dictatorships, if you manage to create a better structure that can be applied to any company larger than 2 people which is substantially different well then you going to make quite a bit of money both because you have created a successful company and that every management school out there would probably love to pay you to lecture there. I'm sure that the likes of the London Business School are already holding their breath.
Re: Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems to me you two are arguing (as so many seem to on HN) at cross purposes. One is saying "this is the way the world works", the other is saying "this is the way the world should work". You can acknowledge one, and strive for the other, at the same time. But then amusingly, your plaintive comment on "how things are" quickly turns into an impassioned rant about "how things should be" - which funnily enough is just h…
Nothing is wrong with the current management structure we have, direct democracy doesn't work in every case if you want to be your own boss there are ways to achieve that. Even in government there is a good reason why we choose representatives we elect the people we think would make the best decisions, hopefully even those which aren't popular what we keep is the right to kick them out without assembling a militia an…
"Nothing is wrong with the current management structure we have"
Completely indefensible. There is plenty wrong. No small part of what is wrong is to do with the way people's egos and prejudices get turned into policy and power. And there are a whole world of options between dictatorship and direct democracy. Everything else you describe past this point is, once again, a description of how things are, not how they should be. Your experiences are a description of how to function under an inopportune power structure.
Just as it is fair to say that the manager decided that this act was insubordination and needed to be punished by a firing, it is also fair to say that if there is a company policy which does not effect revenue but does effect quality of life, then it is perfectly reasonable to organise with your fellow workers to change it. The only error from the interns here was about not gathering enough power to actually see through the change.
"If anything has failed her here it's her education system that up till now didn't taught her that a petition is worthless, that if you want to something to change you build a position of substance and argue that one."
Fully agree with this, but as a starting point of not understanding the way something works, testing it, finding the edge cases and breaking it down is a good start. Do you not do this with every new tool you use? Besides, the real issue you alluded to before is that they basically didn't get that by signing a petition they were organising. The boss understood this and his over the top response is indicative of why organising needs to be protected in law (in a fair and balanced way).
PS. "I don't think that it's fair to equate the current management style of most companies to dictatorships".
Fair enough, oligarchy then.. When the choice is 'my way or the highway', and when they are telling you how to act and how to dress, how else would you describe it?