Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#291

Post by sergiosgc » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:01 PM UTC

yulaow wrote: post #78

themartorana wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

Be mindful that these are pre tax numbers. Add in income tax and social security, and you may chop 50% of that salary off.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#292

Post by mantas » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:05 PM UTC

rahkiin wrote: post #255

fiddlesticks22 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When hiring contractors the company doesn't have to pay any of these things (it's on the contractor). I'm currently contracting for a company in Italy and getting much more than 3k/mo.

So I guess you do like most freelancers: you don't have insurances nor build any pension? So if you get hit by a car, you have nothing.

Don't know about Italy, but at least in some EU countries, freelancers do build pension.

In my country, pension payments is mandatory. As well as insurance for maternity/paternity leave. I've full medical insurance. Well, as full as regular workers. The only difference is I don't have paid sick days and can't claim unemployment benefits. Which kinda makes sense when freelancing.

I think I'm eligible for disabled pension though. So if I got hit by car, I'd get free treatment. But no salary compensation. If I was rendered disabled, I may be eligible for disabled benefits based on my previous incomes. Or at least basic disabled benefits.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#293

Post by 50CNT » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:11 PM UTC

thinkloop wrote: post #235

vemv wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that measuring productivity is a hard, universal problem. While I don't claim to commit 10x more LOCs, I do write exceptional abstractions that allow me to get things done in a quick, robust way. I've met far too many 'senior' developers blatantly breaking DRY because they don't really know/use all features $language or $framework has to offer.

Several years ago I took over the lead UI position at a company. Jira has a feature to display lines of code contributed by developer. After 10 months of adding features, and getting the product to shipping, I had contributed -1500 lines. There were less lines than when I started, and the code was simpler for it. I'd _almost_ say that LOC is a good measure of bad coding.

It's a general thing about data. Just because it is easy to measure doesn't mean its a useful metric.

My hunch is that as expertise increases for developers, LOC/day initially goes up, as they have to think less about language constructs and how to do certain things. Once a certain level of expertise is reached, LOC/day goes down, as the developer figures out how to do more with less code and spends more time in decision making and planning.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#294

Post by varjag » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:11 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #157

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Developers are not fungible. But in my opinion: this "10x" term really has to go away. We need a better way to describe the reality that there's a range in quality and capability for developers that doesn't suggest an order of magnitude. That just means corner cutting.

I've seen order of magnitude differences in performance among developers. The baseline was competent still, mind you; it's just some people are really, really good at their job. And it's not just "oh they put 10x as much LOC while really smart people would focus on proper design": they excel both in theory and practice.

A problem however that you can't really see it in the hiring process. Unlike "0.1x developers" whom you can filter with fizzbuzz, they are indistinguishable from a normal, competent engineer in the interviews, and there aren't many of them around.

Either way, building your company to depend on being staffed by top performers is a dangerous strategy IMO.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#295

Post by jc80 » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:15 PM UTC

raarts wrote: post #189

imaginenore wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same shit in Italy and the Netherlands. I get with very low offers, recruiters are shocked that I bill $100-150 per hour.

I work in the netherlands and I bill $125/hr.

I too, but with mainly US and Nordic customers -- my hourly starts at €250, last contract was above €500

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#296

Post by noinsight » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:19 PM UTC

inoop wrote: post #146

muse900 wrote: post #57

Greek here, living and working abroad. Spain is doing a bit better than Greece but its on the same boat. When I speak with friends back home, I do get a feeling that they don't want to work. Is it because they are lazy? part of me wants to say yes. I can't ignore the fact that the working conditions are awful. Salaries are quite low compared to the rest of Europe, an employer has full control over you, and can fire y…

> I can't ignore the fact that the working conditions are awful one of the great things about the EU is that people can freely move inside it and work wherever they want. Nothing is stopping your friends from doing what you did - seek employment elsewhere. At the same time, if Greek and Spanish companies want to survive they'll have to learn to adapt to the new order and treat their people better, or perish.

> one of the great things about the EU is that people can freely move inside it and work wherever they want.

That's true in principle but languages are an issue. In Nordic countries everyone will speak English but central Europe is different. You might get by with English but not everyone (or even most, depending on the country) will speak it.

Do you want to go through the trouble of learning another language from scratch? The culture will be completely different too.

Coming from Finland I've thought about moving somewhere else just for the experience as it would probably be interesting, but I don't really feel like learning another language when I already speak English.

I've also always wondered how difficult it would be to actually get a job, especially if you don't speak the local language. Maybe with a rockstar education and resumé it would be easy but what if you're "average" (at least on paper)? Having worked for well-known international companies would probably be beneficial.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#297

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:22 PM UTC

anjc wrote: post #287

yummyfajitas wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underclass is already created due to the nationalism of citizens in your country (and mine). The only question is whether you see them or not. I guess as long as desperate poverty is out of sight, it's also out of mind, right? ...companies that operate within the country should be mandated to address it. I'll be sure not to operate within Spain. Why bother with that kind of a hassle when India, China and Singapor…

> The underclass is already created due to the nationalism of citizens in your country Poverty due to endemic unemployment in Spain is caused by nationalism? And it can be solved via free movement of labour between third world countries and European ones?

Unemployed spaniards almost certainly live a far better life than the majority of India. The underclass is the global poor, kept poor by nationalists who won't let them cross arbitrary lines.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#298

Post by Oletros » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #213

Oletros wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you cannot fire them even if they are crap etc. I highly doubt that, it has not been easier to fire someone in Spain since the latests reforms. Not taking into account that there is always a period were the employer and the employee can cancel the contracts without any duty. Normally 6 months

When were those because I was discussing this 'recently' with my lawyer on the coast? Yes the 6 months is true and I compare it with NL where firing is also hard but it's very straighforward how it works. Here I haven't been able to get it explained in that fashion. So far people look at us with pity when we talk about hiring people legally. Note; we are a tiny company.

Basically you can fire anyone when you want. If the cause is justified you pay 10 day for year worked, if it is not justified you pay 20

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#299

Post by riprowan » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

pille wrote: post #266

knocte wrote: post #243

> Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain. > But such people are thin on the ground in Spain. It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn…

Yeah, I'd stay far away from anyone who thinks you need 8 months to grasp the concepts of Agile. Sounds like @horse_recruiter is running the talent search. That ridiculous expectation is probably a symptom of some pretty dysfunctional management in general.

But aren't most job requirements in our field typically written like that?

For example I remember receiving calls from recruiters looking for devs with 5+ years of .NET experience when .NET was less than 5 months old.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#300

Post by riprowan » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #274

wastedhours wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200,000 euros is possible for what's essentially a contract digital transformation consultant, and there are agile qualifications on offer - and when you're dealing with the enterprise, they're often more valued than experience.

It is possible, but that's a very niche market. When you need people who can deal with multiple layers, including senior execs, and run tech teams, you are usually not looking for developers anyway. I don't find it very strange there is a shortage of those; I think you'll find that in most countries. It depends on the exact job description as this is all a bit vague though.

Agreed. I think it's entirely possible that they cannot easily find the skill set they need at 200000€/yr and it's simply that the tech writer did a poor job of communicating the job requirements.