Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#241

Post by plafl » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:14 AM UTC

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

For a senior developer, let's say 10 year working experience, there are some jobs above 50k but they are an small percentage. If I were a fresh graduate, or senior willing to relocate, my advice for any spanish engineer would be to move out of Spain: better salaries, better working conditions and better working culture overall. The EU it's a huge opportunity, don't limit yourself.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#242

Post by ZenoArrow » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:24 AM UTC

shostack wrote: post #91

winestock wrote: post #20

From the article: "Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain." So they're willing to pay ten times the going rate, but they're not willing to take the time to train anyone?…

It is easy to be dismissive of executives and the fact that dealing with them takes a certain skill set. If it is one thing I've learned as someone in a data-heavy field it is that executives don't care about the details and nuances, and that distilling the details of things like log files, etc. and conveying it in a way that aligns with their pain points, strategy, etc. does in fact take great interpersonal skills t…

> "conveying it in a way that aligns with their pain points, strategy".

In my experience, some executives don't even care too much for facts if it interferes with their agenda. This is usually expressed in subtle ways, but in one instance I've heard an executive directly ask for a report that was easy to manipulate the figures on in order to push our employees into generating more sales.

This is part of the problem when you have directors who see themselves as insulated from day to day challenges. I accept that there's a need for a long term vision, but if someone isn't prepared to understand the details of what's blocking it, they'll not be in a place to advise on how to fix it, and if they're relying on other people to fix those organisational issues, what's the point of having directors at all?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#243

Post by knocte » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:25 AM UTC

> Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain.

> But such people are thin on the ground in Spain. It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn an Agile qualification and they also need the ability to deal with senior executives, limiting the pool of people who could potentially fill the roles.

That part of the article is hilarious, not only because 200K euros is completely made up and untrue (by far surpasses best salaries in other more decent countries), but because of the Agile qualification mention. Do we have Agile certifications now? What a load of bullshit.

The only truth in the article is this:

> Spanish executives are less-skilled than their competitors in Germany, France or Italy, according to a study of 11 European countries. Only Greece came out worse.

And that's the reason why the executives don't find workforce. Being less-skilled means they don't value the engineering profession up to the required level to compromise and give good salaries.

(Spanish dev here --working abroad obviously--.)

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#244

Post by cocotino » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:25 AM UTC

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #123

calgoo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romania is one example, but there is a bit of a racial issue going on between the countries.

Yet Romanians are the second biggest minority in Spain. There are no more problems than the disgusting and systemic racism that Spain has towards any other country and hurt feelings on the other side.

Before the crisis we got the worst of Romania and Bulgaria, millions of them, literally. A big chunk of them were very problematic people; not even actual slavs, but gypsies, etc. As if Spanish gypsies weren't enough of a problem already. I remember a friend once went to Bucharest for a trip and was puzzled Romanians are whiter than us! https://blackinmadrid.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/the-romanian-...

Luckily after the construction bubble burst most of them went back home.

Because of Brexit many people have been shittalking A8 countries, but I would not have a problem with Czechoslovaks coming into my country. Unfortunately when you mention easterns here one can only think of the news each and every day, five years ago, talking about robberies in homes and jewelries committed by Albano-Kosovars and Serbians. Romani (not Romanian, but Romani gypsies) kids stealing purses in touristic zones just because they are kids and therefore invulnerable, etc.

My two cents about racism in Spain, before you call it "disgusting and systemic", think of stuff like this. What would a Spanish citizen think? http://www.elmundo.es/madrid/2015/07/01/5593898146163ffe428b...

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#245

Post by pakitan » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

zanny wrote: post #111

scribu wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. Playing devil's advocate: If we limit the discussion to pure tech companies that target a global market, then yes, it is that simple. But there is a vast majority of companies that do not belong to that category, yet require software developers. I'm thinking primarily of Spanish software agencies that have other Spanish companies as clien…

You only "require" the things you can afford. If a company does not have the revenue to afford paying real market rates for developers, they might want a dev, or even need one, but that doesn't mean they can have one any less than a homeless man can have shelter when he needs it but doesn't have the means to afford it. I always hate the mindset that because developers are in demand for some reason lower wages are acc…

I think you're missing the point. No one is saying that developers should be ok with getting less money when they can get more. The point is that as an employee, you bring certain value to the company. And that value is often capped not by your skills and productivity but by the type of company you work for. And there are less companies in Europe of the type that can afford to pay very well.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#246

Post by zerr » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:30 AM UTC

crystalmace wrote: post #220

Viper007Bond wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My company is 100% remote. 400+ folks around the world. Stuff like that is becoming more popular.

I've been considering applying to your company, any advice / comments about working for them?

Could you please mention what company you're talking about?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#247

Post by imjustsaying » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:32 AM UTC

wojt_eu wrote: post #229

triplesec wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously saying you are using child labour?

As a 18-old Polander I was absolutely thrilled to work part-time for a US company. In hindsight, it was also much more valuable for me than academic education I pursued later. I would be offended if someone called this child labour and attempted to limit this opportunity.

RE: Oh, works with kids as well: you can buy many lifetime friends before they become teenagers

>As a 18-old Polander ... I would be offended if someone called this child labour and attempted to limit this opportunity.

"Before teenager" is 0-12 years old

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#248

Post by Strom » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:33 AM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #9

Starting about 2009, there have been a lot of discussions about whether the unemployment in the US was "structural" or not. Some argued that a huge number of laborers and potential employees did not have necessary skills and therefore would be unable to find work. Period. This was a big component of unemployment. Others including Paul Krugman and Dean Baker argued that, because employment was down across most every f…

Speaking as an Estonian, based on the comments in this thread, the working conditions and even salaries are better in Estonia. Estonia is way more tech focused in general.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#249

Post by JustSomeNobody » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:41 AM UTC

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

>We all are perceived as 'equal' or even replaceable.

Sadly, this wil be the norm everywhere eventually.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#250

Post by imjustsaying » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 10:43 AM UTC

igravious wrote: post #172

Waterluvian wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers are not fungible. But in my opinion: this "10x" term really has to go away. We need a better way to describe the reality that there's a range in quality and capability for developers that doesn't suggest an order of magnitude. That just means corner cutting.

I'm sure technical ability falls on a curve like all other human abilities/activities. Like take weight lifting. Most people will be around the middle. Some will be able to lift heavier, some will be able to lift less. But if two people are training I would not expect one person to lift "10x" the next person. No way, no how.

>But if two people are training I would not expect one person to lift "10x" the next person. No way, no how.

... but that's exactly what happens with "technical ability"