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Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

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Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per "Surely You're Joking" and the article, one of the cognitive techniques Feynman used was to keep a physical example, a demo, in his mind that conformed to the math being explained. I wonder if he used that for this, and what his model was.

If you imagine it as a logical statement, represented physically in writing: P ~P Then, I think it is clear the statement is not true. NP is trivially definitionally not equivalent (equal) to P.

Do you know what P and NP mean? What's your ~ supposed to mean?

(You seem to be implying logical negation. But P is not meant to be a logical statement, thus can't be negated.)

Plus what Chinjut said.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#72
post #64

> Feynman also knew about Sophie Germain’s result, who proved in the early 19th century that Fermat’s equation has no solution for n≤100. That's intriguing! What's special about the number 100 that you can prove the case for n≤100?

That description of what Sophie Germain did is slightly glib and inaccurate, I believe. I will give an abbreviated, but accurate, to the best of my knowledge, explanation of what happened: Note that, if you have proven Fermat's Little Theorem for some exponent, then you have also proven it for every multiple of that exponent. Thus, to prove it for all exponents (> 2) up to some limit, it suffices to prove it for all…

A little more detail, since I bothered to go learn it:

Lemma: If x and y are coprime, then the gcd of x + y and (x^n + y^n)/(x + y) divides n.

Proof: Expand out the polynomial division (note that x + y does indeed divide x^n + y^n), and then divide the result by (x + y) again, observing a remainder of ny^(n - 1). Thus, the gcd of interest is the same as gcd(x + y, ny^(n - 1)). As y^(n - 1) is coprime to x + y (by coprimeness of x and y), this is furthermore the same as gcd(x + y, n), completing the proof.

Lemma: If x^p + y^p + z^p = 0, for odd prime p, with z indivisible by p, then (x + y) and (x^p + y^p)/(x + y) are coprime p-th powers.

Proof: As z is indivisible by p, so is -z^p = x^p + y^p, and thus so is its factor x + y. At this point, invoking the above lemma and the primeness of p, we find that (x + y) and (x^p + y^p)/(x + y) are coprime; as their product is a p-th power (-z^p), we conclude they are furthermore each p-th powers.

Sophie Germain's theorem: Suppose p is an odd prime, t is a prime, and the mod-t exponent-p case of FLT is true (in the sense that there is no solution to x^p + y^p + z^p = 0 (mod t) where x, y, and z are nonzero (mod t)), but the non-modular exponent-p (A) case of FLT fails (in the sense that there IS some solution to x^p + y^p + z^p = 0 in integers, all indivisible by p, which we can assume minimal so that x, y, and z are pairwise coprime). Then p is a p-th power modulo t.

Proof: Invoking the above lemma, we have some a, b, c such that a^p = y + z, b^p = x + z, and c^p = x + y.

Furthermore, since mod-t FLT is true, we have that (precisely) one of x, y, or z is zero mod t; WLOG, let this be x. But as 2x = b^p + c^p - a^p, we can invoke mod-t FLT again to conclude that one of b, c, or a is zero mod t. It cannot be b or c, as y and z, respectively, are nonzero mod t; thus, a is zero mod t. Thus, y + z = 0 (mod t), and therefore, by expanding out the polynomial (y^p + z^p)/(y + z), we see that its integer value is equal to py^(p - 1) modulo t. As x is zero mod t, we must have furthermore that (x^p + y^p)/(x + y) must be y^(p - 1) modulo t (note that this is nonzero modulo t). As the former and latter are both p-th powers by the above lemma, so is their ratio in modulo t arithmetic, which is p, completing the proof.

We can now rephrase Sophie Germain's theorem like so: To establish the (A) case of FLT for exponent p, it suffices to find some prime t such that BOTH the mod-t exponent-p case of FLT is true AND p is not a p-th power modulo t.

Such a t is the auxiliary prime for p discussed above. Note that the truth or falsehood of this condition on t relative to p is decidable by finite search.

A couple more comments: As a consequence of the multiplicative group modulo a prime being cyclic, we have that, for primes p and t, EVERY value is a p-th power modulo t unless t is 1 mod p. Thus, an auxiliary prime t for odd prime p must be of the form kp + 1. Furthermore, as t cannot be 2, it must be an odd prime, and therefore k must be even. Finally, we can also rule out k divisible by 3 by again invoking the cyclicity of the multiplicative group modulo t (were k divisible by 3, we would have some primitive cube root of 1 modulo t which was furthermore a p-th power; the three powers of this value would sum to zero and thus provide a counterexample to the mod-t exponent-p case of FLT). So when searching for auxiliary t to prime p, we are looking for primes of the form kp + 1 where k is an even value not divisible by 3; for all such k up through 16, Germain and Legendre managed to prove that conversely, whenever kp + 1 is prime, it satisfies all the conditions to be an auxiliary prime for p (with a slight exception for the two cases where p = 3 and k is 14 or 16), which provides auxiliary primes for each p I do not at the moment know if there are auxiliary primes for each p (and I suspect no one does?), nor how one goes about showing that, for various k, kp + 1 is automatically an auxiliary prime whenever prime (or whether this generalizes beyond k = 16). Oh well. More to learn, always.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#74
This comment isn't meant to be dismissive. I think it's interesting to explore arguments like this. Math progresses by exploring thoughts. But...

Couldn't we argue in the same way that there are unlikely to be any solutions to the simpler equation x^n = z^n?

After all, taking p(x) = x^(1/n - 1)/n to be the probability that x is an n-th power, as Feynman does, and then integrating p(x^n) dx from x = x_0 to infinity to find the expected number of n-th powers of the form x^n for x > x_0, as Feynman does with p(x^n + y^n), we find for n > 2 that this comes out to 1/(x_0^(n - 2) * n * (n - 2)), which is quite small for sizable x_0 and n.

This yields, for example, that the expected number of solutions (and thus an upper-bound for the probability of the existence of any solutions) to the equation x^100 = z^100 with x > 10 should be 1 out of 98 googol. This is about as certain as certain gets that there are no solutions... and yet solutions are as ubiquitous as ubiquitous gets!

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#75
post #74

This comment isn't meant to be dismissive. I think it's interesting to explore arguments like this. Math progresses by exploring thoughts. But... Couldn't we argue in the same way that there are unlikely to be any solutions to the simpler equation x^n = z^n? After all, taking p(x) = x^(1/n - 1)/n to be the probability that x is an n-th power, as Feynman does, and then integrating p(x^n) dx from x = x_0 to infinity to…

Well, Feynman is assuming that x^n + y^n is as likely as any other number to be an nth power. He shows that under this assumption, FLT is very likely true. So if FLT is false, it probably wouldn't be due to some coincidental counterexample. There would have to be a mathematical structure forcing x^n + y^n to be an nth power in some cases. In your example, the mathematical structure forcing x^n to be an nth power is obvious.

The downside of Feynman's approach is that it can't get you any intuition about the structure, the things that aren't statistical randomness. And whether FLT was true or false depended exactly on whether the structure pointed one way or the other. So I have no idea why he was so confident in this analysis.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#76
post #75
post #74

This comment isn't meant to be dismissive. I think it's interesting to explore arguments like this. Math progresses by exploring thoughts. But... Couldn't we argue in the same way that there are unlikely to be any solutions to the simpler equation x^n = z^n? After all, taking p(x) = x^(1/n - 1)/n to be the probability that x is an n-th power, as Feynman does, and then integrating p(x^n) dx from x = x_0 to infinity to…

Well, Feynman is assuming that x^n + y^n is as likely as any other number to be an nth power. He shows that under this assumption, FLT is very likely true. So if FLT is false, it probably wouldn't be due to some coincidental counterexample. There would have to be a mathematical structure forcing x^n + y^n to be an nth power in some cases. In your example, the mathematical structure forcing x^n to be an nth power is o…

Fair enough on your first paragraph. (Though what distinguishes mathematical facts which are "coincidence" from mathematical facts forced true by mathematical structure?)

Actually, I'd say it is odd to find this sort of analysis to give great confidence about the results, not just because it ignores the possibility of structure, but also because it ignores the possibility of coincidence!

After all, there are some things which we probably want to call mathematical coincidences which heuristic argument would tell us are bogglingly unlikely and yet which nonetheless happen. For example, another probabilistic argument: Consider the basic arithmetic 2-ary operations +, -, * , and ^. There are 20!/(10! * 11!) full binary trees with 11 leaf nodes, 10^4 ways to label their internal nodes with one of these 4 operations, and 11! ways to assign the values 0 through 10 to those leaf nodes in some permutation. Thus, there are at most 20!/10! * 10^4 (overall, less than 10^16) values which can be generated using these operators and the natural numbers up through 10 once each (and this is an overestimate, ignoring the structure of, e.g., commutativity of + and * which causes less distinct values to be produced).

We would expect, therefore, that the closest we could get one of those values to line up with a particular unrelated mathematical constant, even focusing only on the fractional part, is no more than about 16 or so decimal digits. If there are thousands of mathematical constants we might compare it to, perhaps we'd get a match to about 20 digits on one.

And yet! And yet (1 + 9^(0 - 4^(6 * 7)))^(3^(2^(10 * 8 + 5))) lines up with e to 18457734525360901453873570 digits.

Now, what's happening here is that we have this other nice lining up of 9^(4^(6 * 7)) = 3^(2^(10 * 8 + 5)), which we can then plug into e ~= (1 + 1/n)^n with huge n. And this, in turn, is because 9 = 3^2 and 4 = 2^2 and 1 + 2 * 6 * 7 = 10 * 8 + 5. There's a bit of an explanation. And yet... surely if anything is a coincidence, this is?

So... I guess what I'm saying is, it is odd to use probabilistic arguments to rule out coincidence. The whole thing that makes a coincidence remarkable is that it is the sort of thing we would consider unlikely, and yet such things do occur, even in mathematics.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#77
post #76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Feynman is assuming that x^n + y^n is as likely as any other number to be an nth power. He shows that under this assumption, FLT is very likely true. So if FLT is false, it probably wouldn't be due to some coincidental counterexample. There would have to be a mathematical structure forcing x^n + y^n to be an nth power in some cases. In your example, the mathematical structure forcing x^n to be an nth power is o…

Fair enough on your first paragraph. (Though what distinguishes mathematical facts which are "coincidence" from mathematical facts forced true by mathematical structure?) Actually, I'd say it is odd to find this sort of analysis to give great confidence about the results, not just because it ignores the possibility of structure, but also because it ignores the possibility of coincidence! After all, there are some thi…

[deleted]

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#78
My math is passably college level, so most of these proofs go over my head. I've always thought of FLT as stating "You cannot make n-3 cubes of side z by stacking/tiling n-3 cubes of side x and y", at which point it becomes something of a tessellation problem in 3 dimensions, which would seem to me to be the intuitive way to go about proving this.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#79
post #76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Feynman is assuming that x^n + y^n is as likely as any other number to be an nth power. He shows that under this assumption, FLT is very likely true. So if FLT is false, it probably wouldn't be due to some coincidental counterexample. There would have to be a mathematical structure forcing x^n + y^n to be an nth power in some cases. In your example, the mathematical structure forcing x^n to be an nth power is o…

Fair enough on your first paragraph. (Though what distinguishes mathematical facts which are "coincidence" from mathematical facts forced true by mathematical structure?) Actually, I'd say it is odd to find this sort of analysis to give great confidence about the results, not just because it ignores the possibility of structure, but also because it ignores the possibility of coincidence! After all, there are some thi…

Whoops, I had 10^4 above where I should've had 4^10. So, about 18 decimal digits rather than 16. The point remains.

Re: Feynman on Fermat's Last Theorem

#80
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa, hang on. Statistical arguments for unproven conjectures are bad, but this counterargument is as bad or worse, especially when you start talking about infinity. Just to address your first example: > The number 42 does not exist (logic: pick an integer. The probability that it equals 42 is zero. QED) I object! What is your probability distribution function over the integers? Your phrasing sort of implies a unifor…

It is easy to address your objection. On a uniform distribution on [n] := {0, 1, 2, ...n}, P(X=42)->0 as n->infty. This is similar to Feynmann's argument.

You're forgetting to integrate the probability over the domain 0 to n. If you do, you always get 1 for n at least 42.
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