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Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

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Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#181
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's more like: hey, I see that you bought that phone at Walmart. You better give Walmart a 30% cut from that phone bill!

Apple doesn't get a 30% cut from any user who uses Spotify on iOS, that would be pretty blatant anti-trust. However Apple gets 30% from anyone they handle billing/tracking for . Spotify, if they allow subscriptions purchased in app, is paying Apple for a service. They're free to think that price is way the hell to high and not sell there. What if Spotify got their way? What if any app could embed their own payment sy…

> What if Spotify got their way? What if any app could embed their own payment system minute? Now Apple has hundreds of millions of users who could easily be defrauded and have their credit card stolen from stuff downloaded from their store. They get sued.

No, they don't get sued.

> As a user, I wouldn't use any of them. The reason I buy so much on iOS is because I trust Apple. I know that if I signed up for a subscription for something it turns out to be a piece of junk, I can easily cancel it with one click. No weird cable company style negotiations. No worrying if some unscrupulous company is going to steal my credit card. Apple has some pretty reasonable reasons for this policy (besides all the obvious selfish/monetary ones).

Then Apple should let you as a user decide whether to use those apps. Apple should let other users decide if they prefer Spotify's billing/tracking in-app. After all Apple would still control the iOS App Store so they can ban any unscrupulous companies that try to steal credit cards. It's absurd though that Apple insists that beforehand that they are the only billing/subscription company that their iOS customers can trust; Amazon for example has been handling ecommerce longer than Apple

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#182
post #165
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple didn't make any stink about it at all. They negotiated privately with the carriers and came to a mutually acceptable deal. Spotify is doing another thing altogether by impugning Apple publicly.

After spending multiple years having agreed to the original deal. In fact Apple IMPROVED the deal this year when they said that for people who have been a subscriber for over year they'll cut their fee to 15%. I believe it may even have been applied slightly retroactively. Spotify's terms with Apple haven't gotten any worse, they've gotten slightly better. But NOW they're loudly complaining. It's not like iOS has bec…

> Spotify's terms with Apple haven't gotten any worse, they've gotten slightly better. But NOW they're loudly complaining. It's not like iOS has become more of a monopoly in the last five years, I'd argue the opposite.

Actually Spotify has been privately complaining for years. Obviously Spotify are "loudly complaining" NOW because Apple launched a directly competing product to Spotify last year.

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#183
post #174
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem that I have is that there's no way around this gatekeeper. With Android and Windows Phone I don't have to publish my app to their app stores if I don't want to--they allow me and my customers figure out how to handle this. With Apple, it's either follow their rules or nothing. I don't understand how they feel justified charging an ongoing 30% monthly subscription for hosting some assets.

They're not charging at for hosting the assets, that's why there's no fee for free apps. They only get that fee because you're using their payment infrastructure. If someone signs up for a subscription outside the app (like I have for Netflix) then someone can use that subscription on an iOS device in the company doesn't have to pay apple a a dime.

> They're not charging at for hosting the assets, that's why there's no fee for free apps. They only get that fee because you're using their payment infrastructure.

There's an Apple developer fee ($99 per year) and of course you have to purchase Apple's hardware.

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#184
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple/iTunes has(had?) the dominant marketshare for digital music retail in the USA

That's true it did, but there were perfectly reasonable alternatives such as CDs. That was always the problem with the argument against iTunes Music Store. As time went on other DRM free stores came around like Amazon. The difference with the App Store (full disclosure: I don't think there's anti-trust issues here) is that it's THE ONLY place to buy apps for iOS. There's no place to get a substitute (HTML isn't compe…

> The case against the app store is far more compelling in the one against the iTunes Music Store.

Well what makes the case compelling to the original parent point is not exclusive access but market share. Apple's iPod (hardware players) and iTunes Store (digital music store) had a dominant 70%+ USA market share for most of the past decade. In comparison the iPhone has been between 40%-50% USA market share for the past 5 years (the iPad though has 60%-70%+ market share).

What makes a case compelling for Anti-trust issues though is not market share per se but ABUSE of that market share. A compelling case can be made that Apple is using their market share to muscle in from the digital music downloads business to the digital music streaming business (preferential links between iTunes and Apple Music etc) with unfair tactics against Spotify and other competitors (Rdio for one has already been driven out of business)

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#185
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's quite similar to what stops people from simply moving to a new city to escape a local monopoly.

What are you talking about? Android phones are sold everywhere that iPhones are sold.

Do they run your purchased iOS software?

Play your purchased iTunes movies locked with Fairplay DRM?

Read your purchased iBooks?

Read your personal documents, passwords, and data locked into iCloud?

Synchronize with your other Apple iCloud-only devices?

At some point, product tying results in lock-in far more costly to escape than, say, a video game console with platform-only titles.

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#186
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The app store itself is a monopoly." No, it isn't. There is Google Play, Microsoft, Amazon, and a whole host of other app stores out there. Remember, the market is mobile devices altogether, not just iOS devices. "Only legal gap is declaring Apple's app store on its platform a monopoly, the second that is done then everything else naturally falls into place and Apple receives antitrust violations." Which will not ha…

> No, it isn't. There is Google Play, Microsoft, Amazon, and a whole host of other app stores out there. Apple has banned all of those from iOS. It allows no third party app stores. > Remember, the market is mobile devices altogether, not just iOS devices. You cannot just tack on the word "remember" to make something an established fact. We don't know what the scope of future legal decisions will be until they're in…

I wish you'd stop cluttering up these comment trees with your superficial and obviously misguided beliefs about what is and is not legal.

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#187
post #175

What's weird is that Apple has a lovely, convenient system for in-app payments called Apple Pay that has a great pricing model that everyone is happy with (usually 2-3%). They just don't allow it to be used for subscriptions. Why? What is their goal here? Let's survey the possibilities... 1. To make a ton of money by extracting revenue from developers and content providers. This is the "obvious" goal everything immed…

Apples and oranges. Apple Pay has no fee to the user or the company receiving the money, it's paid by the bank and is EXTREMELY small. Normal credit card fees still apply, but those don't go to Apple. For all intents and purposes it is a single bank transaction almost like any other. Apple has almost no part in it except helping verify security. In-app purchases are different. Apple takes a cut because Apple provides…

> Apple takes a cut because Apple provides a real service. They host the app, they do the billing...

Those benefits are irrelevant to subscription content. Apple does not host Spotify's content. Spotify does not need Apple to handle monthly billing. If Apple merely wanted to offer a convenient worldwide billing service, they could make it opt-in for smaller developers, and Spotify would happily handle their own billing, tax calculations, etc.

No, the goal here must be something more.

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#188
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon had no more of a monopoly with the Kindle and eBooks than Apple did with the iPod and AAC.

That's not true. The fact of the matter is Amazon had a huge lion's share of the market for e-books (measured by $$$). They had such a huge monopoly position that they could dictate terms to all publishers, more than once they refused to carry a publishers e-books (effectively killing them) if a publisher didn't agreed to some terms that Amazon wanted. They would stop selling PHYSICALS books to push the contract. Sin…

> That's not true. The fact of the matter is Amazon had a huge lion's share of the market for e-books (measured by $$$).

As does/did Apple with the iPod and the iTunes digital music store. Apple had 70%+ market share for over a decade and could dictate terms to publishers as well.

> They had such a huge monopoly position that they could dictate terms to all publishers, more than once they refused to carry a publishers e-books (effectively killing them) if a publisher didn't agreed to some terms that Amazon wanted. They would stop selling PHYSICALS books to push the contract.

The publishers decided to connect both physical books and eBooks rights in a contract. Amazon had to stop selling the physical books when those contracts expired.

> So not only did they do that, what they really like doing with selling Kindles. And a great way to sell Kindles is to discount the books below the actual selling price; eating the loss and making the publishers e-books on other platforms (as well as physical books) worth less. To a fair degree it didn't matter to Amazon if the prices were unsustainable, it fueled growth in their devices which fueled growth in their profits. And then they would do something like push Prime since you could get free books that way (more loss for publishers) and Amazon would make up the money. And the publishers could either choose to go along with it and get a small price for each book or say no and get all their e-books pulled. Plus Amazon had cable direct, which was a publishing platform that anyone could access. This meant that they had TONS of content by authors who were willing to sell it dirt cheap. This put the publishers in the same position that the media is right now competing with YouTube. And of course some of those books were actually really really good (Silo series by Howey) and became great sellers. Maybe even books that the publishers had passed on. It wasn't all garbage. So Amazon could show the publishers that they weren't nearly as necessary as the publishers thought they were. Apple NEVER did anything like that. When Apple sold music it was at a flat price. They never undercut the publisher. After a little while to even let the publishers raise prices. And the whole time selling on the iTunes Music Store was an option since you could still sell CDs or sell to other DRM music stores like Amazon.

The DOJ looked at Amazon's books and found that despite the sale prices for many bestsellers the Amazon ebook division made profit as whole so it wasn't unsustainable. The bestseller ebook sale prices were no different than the Walmart hardcover book sale prices or a grocery milk sale prices i.e. a standard retailer loss-leader retail strategy. And publishers didn't lose money on these ebook as they were paid a set amount no matter Amazon's sale price.

Amazon's preference for lower digital prices were no different from Apple's. Prior to the iTunes Store, music publishers sold singles for $3.99 and preferred to sell whole albums. Apple negotiated that $.99 per track and that the album be broken up so customers could buy any individual track. Apple also let indies upload their music to the iTunes Store. And Apple had their own free music promotions; Apple used to give away a free single on the iTunes Store every week. All in service of course of the iPod hardware profits as Apple infamously barely made back their margin with iTunes Store squeezing out other digital music store competitors.

It's worth pointing out that the book market was particularly perverse compared to the music market. The book publishers practiced a version of windowing (some still to this day) where books are released exclusively as expensive hardcovers for months before later being made available as paperbacks/ebooks. That would be the equivalent of the music publishers demanding everybody purchase vinyl versions if they want an album at launch! Amazon's fight to reduce the prices of books and make simultaneous release of all versions was a clear win for customers even if it reduced the worth of hardcovers and publishers inflated profits.

> Amazon was easily the standard oil of the e-book market. They WERE the e-book market. No one ever went after them.

Amazon was not the first to the ebook market (Sony released the first ebook reader) but they were the best for customers. Just like Apple was the best music player for customers and reduced music prices despite having a monopoly.

> Then Apple came along, is part of the deal with publishers that broke Amazons monopoly, and they got an antitrust suit. None of that makes any sense to me.

Well obviously even if you're right — Amazon was an evil monopoly bad for customers — that's does NOT give Apple and the publishers the right to break the law in order to take down Amazon. The Apple and publishers collusion was a textbook antitrust case and resulted in higher prices and poorer experiences for customers. It was a bad move by Apple and the publishers.

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#189
post #104
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't have the same rule, nor Spotify, nor Netflix nor Amazon music have to use Google payment system

https://play.google.com/about/monetization-ads/ Right there. "Developers offering products within another category of app downloaded on Google Play must use Google Play In-app Billing as the method of payment" The exceptions are for physical things, and for things that can be used outside of the app. You can't use a Spotify subscription outside of Spotify.

The full rule

> Payment is for digital content that may be consumed outside of the app itself (e.g. songs that can be played on other music players).

As Spotify music can be used outside the Goole Play app, Google doesn't take a cute.

The same reason I can buy Kindle ebooks within the Android app

Re: Apple Fires Back at Spotify for Asking for 'Preferential Treatment'

#190
post #107
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're using Apple's infrastructure to distribute their app to millions of people globally. This is paid with the $99/year developers pay > They're also getting access to Apple's payment infrastructure and the huge database of payment information Apple holds. No, they are FORCED to use Apple payment infrastructure. Spotify has their own and they are very glad to use it if they are allowed

They are not forced to use Apple's payment infrastructure, as evidence that they have the ability to sign up through the website.

They are forced to use it if they want to have subscriptions in the app.
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