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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#121

Post by NetStrikeForce »

patrickaljord wrote: post #63
mathattack wrote: post #45

I've seen software projects where this was a big issue. Many ambitious Spaniards wind up working in London or elsewhere. Then Spanish companies have to hire overpriced consultancies to fill local tech positions with underqualified resources. I wonder how much the Brexit will send folks home. My impression is that many companies are looking at Spain as alternatives to London HQs, but those are also the kind of jobs fo…

Brexit will happen in 2 years at best. Even so, the UK would still offer work visa to skilled EU workers, there's nothing stopping them from doing that, in fact this is what they said they were going to do. Does everyone really think Brexit is some kind of apocalypse or something for the UK? They love money as much as anyone else and want to remain the finance capital of Europe because money.

Yes, but big part of the people that voted Leave are not the people that do business or that like money above other things.

Many Leavers I've talked to justify their decision on "border control" and "sovereignty". They have been given the power to decide and apparently they were "better off with a grand or two less" (sic) "than being slaved to the Eurocrats" (sic).

The problem with visas is that if I have to go through the burden and uncertainty of visas for me and my family, I might as well just move to Paris, Hamburg or Munich for no visas or Australia or California for good economy and fucking decent weather. You'll still get talent, but the shortage will still be much worse and you'll end up lowering your requirements.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#122

Post by quantumhobbit »

winestock wrote: post #20

From the article: "Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain." So they're willing to pay ten times the going rate, but they're not willing to take the time to train anyone?…

That essay by Clay Shirky is golden. I can't believe I hadn't seen it by now. Reminds me of the promise of what agile should have been instead of what Agile often is. I shudder to think of what the Spainish execs are looking for in candidates "trained in Agile".

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#123

Post by NetStrikeForce »

calgoo wrote: post #87
UVB-76 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people from Eastern Europe speak Spanish? Obviously not as important for low-skilled, manual labour, but we're talking about highly skilled jobs in the tech sector here.

Romania is one example, but there is a bit of a racial issue going on between the countries.

Yet Romanians are the second biggest minority in Spain. There are no more problems than the disgusting and systemic racism that Spain has towards any other country and hurt feelings on the other side.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#124

Post by gozur88 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #50
altoz wrote: post #8

You have two groups: 1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers The employers complaining about people in group 2 being scarce are merely not paying enough. The workers complaining in group 1 need more skills that the market wants. They're at different ends of the spectrum. Other than that they live in the same country, they really don't have much to do with each other. Whether you can convert…

1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers "If there was excess of people in group 2, then there'd be no upward pressure on wages, in the fashion that there is none in group 1. If we import or train enough of group 2, perhaps we can make this happen..." Basically, the message for each group - "we want to pay less".

That's the way I read it. Employers don't want to pay enough to motivate people to develop skills for which they have openings. They'd rather hire foreigners than hire locals and train them.

So they put pressure on the government to swamp the market with newly trained/educated people as well as loosen restrictions on the hiring of foreign nationals.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#125

Post by NetStrikeForce »

yulaow wrote: post #117
gleenn wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's very true, but it still seems a little crazy that you're doing the same work and getting paid 20-25% of a SV job.

It depends also on how many hours do you work. Here is pretty common you never go over 38hours week, and if you have to you are compensated very well (1.5~2.5 x normal hour rate). For what I read (but probably there is a little bias in it) in SV there is a partially workcentered style of life when you have to work often >60h with a salaried contract (that, btw, here in EU they do not exist... you are paid with an exp…

Where in Spain you rarely go over 38hr/week or will get decently paid those extra? Man, things must have changed for good in the last 5 years.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#126

Post by fchollet »

gorkemyurt wrote: post #113
fchollet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paris is much less expensive than the bay area, but more expensive than the average US city. In fact, it's barely less expensive than NYC, one of the most expensive US cities. Also, if you are working remotely you cannot command a bay area salary.

So you are saying NYC is much less expensive than Bay Area?

Yes. Specifically, rents are much higher in SF/SV than in NYC. SF has even higher rent than Manhattan. Most of NYC (not Manhattan or Williamsburg) can be quite reasonable.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#127

Post by cocotino »

themartorana wrote: post #72
cocotino wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember when Tuenti opened and they started paying developers a normal developer salary (instead of the insanely low standard stuff here) and eeeeevery dev business here was mad as fuck about that. They understood it as if Tuenti were stealing developers from them, paying the unpayable for men

You mean they were mad because someone was making it difficult to take advantage of people? Because it sounds like they're pissed it became more difficult to take advantage of people. Which sounds very mafioso, not to mention the collusion that must be taking place.

Yes that's what I meant. That's how bad was (and still is) the situation here.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#128

Post by pvaldes »

fovc wrote: post #82
vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Is there a good place for hiring Spanish devs to work remote? I'm a native Spanish speaker and this sounds like a great arbitrage opportunity

Nubelo?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#129

Post by ZenoArrow »

vacri wrote: post #98
ZenoArrow wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It was far less common for people to change jobs back then, too. Neither employers nor employees feel any real loyalty towards one another, so investing in one another feels foolish. There's nothing to incentivise someone to stay once he's learnt the skills he needs to get a position elsewhere." Sorry, I still don't understand this attitude. I live in the UK, it's common here to have at least some level of on-the-…

Developer skills take a very long time to train. For example, you can train someone to use a forklift in a day, but there are people who have developed for 10 years and still have trouble with version control software. Developers are a professional role, and you don't get unskilled, unemployed people and train them on the job to be professionals.

Depends. There are paths into development that don't rely on formal training. 10 years ago I was a customer service advisor, now I'm a test analyst (with coding experience). You can work your way into technical roles. One of the best things I did (other than immerse myself in learning about computing in my spare time) was to start learning SQL. Anyone that uses Excel to do their job can benefit from learning SQL, and it's been very useful to me even when I wasn't directly in a software development team. In addition, you can get plenty of use out of the basics and build up your knowledge over time.

The point is, even if you can't train a new developer in a weekend, on-the-job training can help people build up to it eventually, with the added benefit of the employee being more effective at what they do along the way (basic coding skills are useful for cutting down on a lot of time-consuming tasks).

Oh and if an experienced coder has trouble with version control software, perhaps that's a sign that the approach to version control may be overly complex. From what I've seen of version control systems, the hardest task is merging branches, and the need to constantly create branches can be mitigated against through better management of centralised repositories (which still works with DVCS like Git).

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#130

Post by ZenoArrow »

calgoo wrote: post #83
ZenoArrow wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It was far less common for people to change jobs back then, too. Neither employers nor employees feel any real loyalty towards one another, so investing in one another feels foolish. There's nothing to incentivise someone to stay once he's learnt the skills he needs to get a position elsewhere." Sorry, I still don't understand this attitude. I live in the UK, it's common here to have at least some level of on-the-…

There is "some" training, but I think the general understanding is: "There are 50,000 others who want the job, and if we dont like this one, we will get someone else" so why train them? The normal training I see here is "know the company" kind of stuff and the yearly health and safety course mandated by the government.

I still find the attitude bizarre. If you train your current employees they generally become better at their job. If they become better at their job then the company can work more effectively without requiring additional staffing overhead. Those "50,000 others" are not equal in productivity and effectiveness to the employees you train in-house. In addition to all of this, sometimes you don't even need any additional budget to train employees, you just need to give them the space to work based on their own ingenuity.
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