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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#111

Post by zanny »

scribu wrote: post #95
charlesdm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. Just compare salaries of software engineers in most EU countries with salaries in the US. If you're a good developer, 99% of the time it's better to work remotely from Europe for a US company. It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. They're probably the same people who think you need 1…

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. Playing devil's advocate: If we limit the discussion to pure tech companies that target a global market, then yes, it is that simple. But there is a vast majority of companies that do not belong to that category, yet require software developers. I'm thinking primarily of Spanish software agencies that have other Spanish companies as clien…

You only "require" the things you can afford. If a company does not have the revenue to afford paying real market rates for developers, they might want a dev, or even need one, but that doesn't mean they can have one any less than a homeless man can have shelter when he needs it but doesn't have the means to afford it.

I always hate the mindset that because developers are in demand for some reason lower wages are acceptable. The opposite is true, exclusively, than when developers are in demand you should demand more money, and accept no less. It is extraordinarily rare for a worker to have any leverage over their employer, to such a degree that there is this systemic culture of employers being unable to stomach the concept of a developer being a skilled professional that demands a professional wage above and beyond what someone driving a truck or working in Excel makes.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#112

Post by cloakandswagger »

themartorana wrote: post #103
cloakandswagger wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumption is the same mistake made by almost all supranational federalists. Europe is composed of different countries with vastly different languages, cultures and economic conditions. Just because they're technically "joined" together via treaties doesn't mean labor is going to naturally distribute throughout the union.

And yet they thought a shared currency would be no big deal.

Don't get me started.

Economists from around the world were adamant that the Euro was a terrible idea when it was founded. Binding dozens of wildly differing economies to one currency controlled by one central bank has always been a pipe dream, but it takes decades for it to start to unravel.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#113

Post by gorkemyurt »

fchollet wrote: post #84
jules wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the cost of living in Paris less than a normal US city?

Paris is much less expensive than the bay area, but more expensive than the average US city. In fact, it's barely less expensive than NYC, one of the most expensive US cities. Also, if you are working remotely you cannot command a bay area salary.

So you are saying NYC is much less expensive than Bay Area?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#114

Post by charlesdm »

yulaow wrote: post #78
themartorana wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

Why make €3,000 when you can easily make €6,000 or €8,000 doing the same work? Unlike a lawyer or a doctor, software engineering can easily be "exported" and done from anywhere in the world. You just need to be _good_.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#115

Post by NetStrikeForce »

DanBC wrote: post #26
macspoofing wrote: post #22

This was a frustrating article to read. I got the sense the author missed something. Spain is part of the EU common market which numbers 500 million people - how is it that this is only a problem for Spain, and why can't they recruit fellow EU citizens to make-up the shortfall?

There are EU wide shortages of some professions (eg nurses, especially mental health nurses; doctors, especially mental health doctors (and especially paediatric MH doctors)) and these professions take some time to train people.

What? No. There are countless unemployed nurses in Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Ask the NHS how many they bring in every year.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#116

Post by whyaduck »

tremon wrote: post #53
konschubert wrote: post #34

> It takes at least eight months for an experienced software developer to earn an Agile qualification and they also need the ability to deal with senior executives, I am a bit confused by this sentence. How does one "ear an Agile qualification"? Why does it take eight months? What is "the ability to deal with senior executives"?

What is "the ability to deal with senior executives"? Patience and prudence.

Actually, I think it's the ability to translate the state of a project into risks, rewards and trade-offs. It's not necessarily an innately understood skill for technical individual contributors.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#117

Post by yulaow »

gleenn wrote: post #93
yulaow wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

I think that's very true, but it still seems a little crazy that you're doing the same work and getting paid 20-25% of a SV job.

It depends also on how many hours do you work. Here is pretty common you never go over 38hours week, and if you have to you are compensated very well (1.5~2.5 x normal hour rate).

For what I read (but probably there is a little bias in it) in SV there is a partially workcentered style of life when you have to work often >60h with a salaried contract (that, btw, here in EU they do not exist... you are paid with an explicit amount of hours per week in your contract). For example reading the book of Elon Musk it seems he asks constantly for 80/90h/w working also on the weekend. Consider also that.

Oh and also you have not to pay anything for healtcare.

Basically, as other have already said, if you manage to live in Italy-France-Spain-Portugal-Germany and you are capable to get a remote work for a company in US you will have a incredibly high level of life here.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#118

Post by smsm42 »

So, if they don't have enough qualified workers, why don't they start creating on-the-job training programs? I understand there's risk in such investment (i.e., you train a person and then they leave for a higher salary) but there are many ways to counter it. Is there something like that happening in Spain? If not, why?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#119

Post by yulaow »

charlesdm wrote: post #114
yulaow wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

Why make €3,000 when you can easily make €6,000 or €8,000 doing the same work? Unlike a lawyer or a doctor, software engineering can easily be "exported" and done from anywhere in the world. You just need to be _good_.

I agree. I was just saying that, anyway, with 3000e/m you are not living a bad life, you are instead pretty """rich""" for the standars here. Indeed, if you can, better improve it.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#120

Post by smsm42 »

Findeton wrote: post #23
HillaryBriss wrote: post #9

Starting about 2009, there have been a lot of discussions about whether the unemployment in the US was "structural" or not. Some argued that a huge number of laborers and potential employees did not have necessary skills and therefore would be unable to find work. Period. This was a big component of unemployment. Others including Paul Krugman and Dean Baker argued that, because employment was down across most every f…

In Spain, we just had elections on the 26th of June, and the conservatives won. There is money, as taxes in Spain are high on wages but low on big companies and the government's budget is 10 points lower % than the EU average... but we have a conservative government.

If you had elections on 26th of June, it's not likely that this has had any effect on anything happening in Spanish economy. And probably won't be for a while - economy has inertia.
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