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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#71

Post by Retric »

nemothekid wrote: post #62
vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

> Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. I don't think the 10x programmer is a valid concept. If a company believes they can easily replace you for that price, then chances are you aren't working on anything that that makes you irreplaceable. Why should an employer pay you more for the same amount of work? I also have reservations about looking at work as "an intimate family-like rela…

You don't need to be irriplacable as long as the cost of replacement > your salary premium over some time period.

A completely average developer making 1k over market is not replaceable for anywhere near 1k.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#72

Post by themartorana »

cocotino wrote: post #48
whamlastxmas wrote: post #5

The article says the average salary in Spain is around $22k. Even at twice that, it's not hard to see why developers are not working for (or maybe even in) Spain. I suspect the problem has more to do with Spanish businesses not being willing or able to compete for developers with market salary rates. It's frustrating that they don't provide data like that in articles like this. Instead of they a single data point ane…

I still remember when Tuenti opened and they started paying developers a normal developer salary (instead of the insanely low standard stuff here) and eeeeevery dev business here was mad as fuck about that. They understood it as if Tuenti were stealing developers from them, paying the unpayable for men

You mean they were mad because someone was making it difficult to take advantage of people? Because it sounds like they're pissed it became more difficult to take advantage of people.

Which sounds very mafioso, not to mention the collusion that must be taking place.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#73

Post by switch007 »

Findeton wrote: post #23
HillaryBriss wrote: post #9

Starting about 2009, there have been a lot of discussions about whether the unemployment in the US was "structural" or not. Some argued that a huge number of laborers and potential employees did not have necessary skills and therefore would be unable to find work. Period. This was a big component of unemployment. Others including Paul Krugman and Dean Baker argued that, because employment was down across most every f…

In Spain, we just had elections on the 26th of June, and the conservatives won. There is money, as taxes in Spain are high on wages but low on big companies and the government's budget is 10 points lower % than the EU average... but we have a conservative government.

PP won the most votes but not enough to secure a majority. Rajoy is currently in talks with other parties to form a majority, hopefully "within a month." Technically you still have a conservative government but who knows what will happen.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#74

Post by acchow »

muse900 wrote: post #64
charlesdm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered working remotely for a US company? I know a guy making €7 or 8,000 per month, after tax, living in Paris. Best of both worlds: amazing quality of living, cheap cost of living + healthcare, lots of spending (or investing) money! Seems to be working well for him.

I find that salary excessive tbh. I understand working remotely for a US company and get a US based salary, truth is that the companies that will do that are mostly startups and I don't think they have the funds for high end salaries. Except if you are a genius dev and they do need you and you go off and tell them that you want to work from home and live in another Country. I do think though you can get jobs that pay…

I suggest taking a look at HN's "Who is Hiring" monthly threads. Try to focus on remote work for Bay Area companies - minimum should be $100k/annually for a good dev.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#75

Post by CamonZ »

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Not only that, another factor to take into account is that very few Spanish companies are willing to sponsor a work visa, and, don't even get me started on the perma-intern scam for professionals with 10years of experience.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#76

Post by calgoo »

adwf wrote: post #38
ldng wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of skilled Spanish dev have fled to Paris and London despite the high cost of living of those cities and being paid less because they're foreigners because it is still more rewarding. In Spain, politician and corruption are pushing skilled people away. I have seen (and heard of) too many people moving out to be just mere coincidence. The subtlety is that most of the time the greedy consulting firm will keep 198…

After Brexit, I'm very tempted to move in the opposite direction. If the Spanish consulting firms can be undercut to that extent, there's a potentially lucrative market. Unfortunately I only know French and German, but I could learn Spanish relatively quickly I guess. The corruption and politics is troubling however.

Its not to bad. I live in Barcelona, the corruption is a problem, and will not be solved soon. But thats such a deep problem thats going to take a long time to solve. There is currently a a lot of talented local people and international people who want to work here. A lot of the agencies pay between 15K and 25K on average for junior developers / administrators. However, you can be stuck in the bracket for a long time unless you are able to find a way to switch to a different position. The issue is once you get a job in the 30K+ group where its a lot harder finding anything. Let me know if you have any other questions :)

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#77

Post by ArkyBeagle »

nemothekid wrote: post #62
vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

> Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. I don't think the 10x programmer is a valid concept. If a company believes they can easily replace you for that price, then chances are you aren't working on anything that that makes you irreplaceable. Why should an employer pay you more for the same amount of work? I also have reservations about looking at work as "an intimate family-like rela…

The 10x thing happens all the time. What should happen is that a way for he 10x person to teach or otherwise influence the other members of the team should be in play, but constructing a robust set of incentives for that is difficult.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#78

Post by yulaow »

themartorana wrote: post #68
muse900 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that salary excessive tbh. I understand working remotely for a US company and get a US based salary, truth is that the companies that will do that are mostly startups and I don't think they have the funds for high end salaries. Except if you are a genius dev and they do need you and you go off and tell them that you want to work from home and live in another Country. I do think though you can get jobs that pay…

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#79

Post by themartorana »

muse900 wrote: post #57

Greek here, living and working abroad. Spain is doing a bit better than Greece but its on the same boat. When I speak with friends back home, I do get a feeling that they don't want to work. Is it because they are lazy? part of me wants to say yes. I can't ignore the fact that the working conditions are awful. Salaries are quite low compared to the rest of Europe, an employer has full control over you, and can fire y…

Being undervalued in a "global" economy can be way unmotivating (especially the Euro economy where Germany expects Greece to operate in the same currency and economy, but then workers in Greece make far less than their German counterparts).

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#80

Post by gutnor »

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

It used to be better - I was looking for work in Spain just before the crisis. A senior dev could easily do 50K, banking positions were 70K and up.

Nowadays however, you can't find anything over 35K that is related to development -and- in Spain ( i.e. not a position in Germany)

Anyway - Spain does not have a problem of running out of worker, it has a problem of not paying those workers. I have been looking for years to go back to Spain but the job market is just completely unrealistic. I'm highly skeptical of the 200K figure in the article. Of course, job offers in Spain often do not specify the salary at all, but I have regularly seen director level position for about 70-90K.

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