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Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

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121–130 of 134 posts

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#121
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go round to the homes of everyone who assumes that shipping a hard-wired copy of a codec in a browser is the only way to support video, and smack them all upside the head with a printout of the source to gstreamer. It won't cause them any sort of enlightenment, but it will make me feel a bit better.

The issue isn't that it's technically impractical to support H.264 but rather that it's legally impractical. Sure you could just offload the problem to the operating system via something like GStreamer but that just moves the target, it doesn't eliminate it. It just means anyone who distributes your OS gets into trouble rather than your browser distributor. This is about eliminating the possibility of submarine paten…

I don't think that is a problem. Part of the price of the OS goes into the codec.

Open Solaris tries to get around this, by getting you to pay for the codec after install.

Of course not paying is the ideal outcome, for most consumers.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#122
post #56

Things I don't understand: * Fork? * H.264 HTML Video support via a plugin? Why aren't these valid solutions?

Because you need to pay licensing fees measured in "millions of USD per year" if you're going to distribute software which decodes H.264.

So? Mozilla is making a fair amount of money now. It's a big expense to license, but it's not an unobtainable one. Part of being a big player is sometimes paying out to license the best technology.

Mozilla is asking us to side with them based purely on ideology and an impact to their bottom line as a corporation. And Mozilla is not a tiny garage operation anymore.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#123
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me for not understanding, but if I can ask for further clarification-- In your last post, you said: " Anti-competitive actions are always pragmatic if you're not going to get punished for them. " From this, I conclude that when you say "anti-competitive", you are referring to actions that ought to be punished. Then, I asked if it was anti-competitive for companies to act in accordance with their own interests…

In an ideal world businesses would not behave anti-competitively and this would have great benefits for society. In this particular real world you can't micromanage like that, and you'd end up with bad government if you even tried, but still companies are punished for the anti-competitive actions which are big or bad enough to be worth prosecuting, and are generally expected to refrain from doing so all by themselves…

I personally would prefer it if patents, standards bodies and a few other such institutions were reformed to encourage greater competition and prevent anti-competitive behaviour.

I agree. We undoubtedly disagree on what things and in what ways, but I don't think the current systems and organizations are operating at their best, either. On most aspects of the larger problems am very undecided, but I have a particular bee in my bonnet over this issue because I strongly disagree with Mozilla's handling of the situation.

standards were a previously successful tool to avoid proprietary vendor lock-in

They still are. That's why we're talking about a single (albeit broad) format called "h.264", which dozens of vendors support and not dozens of different competing locked-in formats.

but they have since been captured by the very organisations they were meant to regulate

I'm not sure what you mean by this. To my knowledge, the primary participants in the relevant standards bodies have always been the same ones cross-licensing their IP. That would seem to make sense: You can't have interoperable standards if the parties won't share what they have, and the most reliable way of getting someone to share what they have is to give them something in return.

Making any royalty-free standard mandatory (e.g. Theora) is only an issue because of potential patent claims from trolls in general or MPEG-LA members specifically.

I disagree. Making any codec mandatory means mandating risk. In a standard, this means implementors agreeing to take on that risk--but the parties involved in HTML5 have not agreed to take on the risk of any codec. Why they choose not to is irrelevant from the viewpoint of authoring a standard. There is no sense in publishing a standard that is full of stuff which isn't actually standard. Trying to alter reality by altering the spec would not work regardless of patents -- it would just make otherwise compliant parties non-compliant, to no end but smug satisfaction.

(It's worth noting here that h.264 was never mandated by the spec. The parties that implement it have done so for their own reasons, without being mandated.)

Without that patent threat there is no substantive reason to not implement Theora (or any potential VP8 derived codec).

The same is true of h.264, with the essential difference that licensing allows the risk to be managed, even without patent reform. As in, today. If we had to hold up all progress until the messy problems of international IP law had been solved, h.264 would be patent-free by the time we were finished.

And this on top of the fact that there is very little technical or economic reason to implement Theora. It's just not that useful.

the groups who have refused to implement Theora have done so primarily because of influence brought to bear on them by MPEG-LA

On what evidence do you make this claim?

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#124
post #80
post #43

I imagine I'm missing something. But why couldn't Mozilla use an extension that supports H264? Similar to Ubuntu's nonfree packages? I imagine the HTML5 video tags are pretty deep in Gecko, but surely they could 'pave the way' with a clear interface for such an extension. And then use one that is developed by others. Isn't that one of the advantages of having a standardized tag? Reading this: http://shaver.off.net/di…

But who will make this extension ? Who will pay 5 millions $ each year to use H264 on Firefox ? If H264 become standard, every browser will have to pay the license fee. What if a new team of developers decide that all browsers sucks and they want to create their own, just like the Mozilla team did ? They will have to pay 5 millions if they want to distribute a browser that people could really use (almost nobody would…

"Who will pay 5 millions $ each year to use H264 on Firefox ?"

I've already paid for my H.264 licenses. Now I just want to use them. The PC to my left has a video card with licensed H.264 that I paid for and free software that harnesses it, the Mac in front of me has both a video card with licensed H.264 and a licensed software decoder and I paid for both, the Windows 7 VM running in the Mac even has a licensed H.264 decoder that I paid for, the phone to my right has licensed H.264 that I paid for, heck the linux-based set-top box in the living room has hardware in it with licensed H.264 decoding and as I'm sure you can guess I'll point out that I paid for that license too. :)

"If H264 become standard, every browser will have to pay the license fee."

Why? I just want Firefox to let me use the licenses I have already paid for.

All they have to do is defer to the appropriate operating system -level decoding support as many have suggested. That they are refusing to do so suggests to me that this has nothing to do with licensing fees and has everything to do with something else we've not quite uncovered yet.

At the end of the day, though, unless the Mozilla folks change their course I can easily see techies supporting family and/or business by saying "just install Chrome" the same way they used to (and to an extent still do, I suppose) say "just install Firefox" when their supported userbase complained about IE. The real risk now is that even if in the end Mozilla's issue is purely one of ideology it won't stop them from having become irrelevant in the process.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd personally contend that MS, Apple, and Google didn't "choose proprietary," they chose 1) the current market leading format 2) ...that has the most video content available online already 3) ...that can be hardware accelarated 4) ...that offers the best quality to size ratio.

I don't think it's fair to blame Google here -- after all, Chrome supports Theora and Vorbis natively. If they want to pay for licenses, that's their decision. The problem is when a browser doesn't support Theora/Vorbis at all , such as Safari or current news regarding IE9. I'm personally hoping that the released version of IE9 will support Theora/Vorbis -- very unlikely, but a man can dream.

Right, I think my original comment was worded badly. I'm not trying to say that Google deserves blame for the choice they made. It's not what I would have chosen but they can chose anything they want. I don't like that a lot of people seem to be mad at Mozilla for not being willing to support H.26whateverhtheeheckitis.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#126
post #93
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DSP decoder was implemented by David Schleef and funded by Mozilla. Nokia weren't involved with it at all. It was released last year, and you can use it right now: http://www.schleef.org/blog/2009/11/11/theora-on-ti-c64x-dsp... FFmpeg has had an independent VP3 and Theora decoder for years. The history goes back to 2003. The source is here: http://git.ffmpeg.org/?p=ffmpeg;a=blob;f=libavcodec/vp3.c The claim about…

The DSP code was written for Mozilla Fennec to use, and the only platform using Fennec is the Nokia N900. Has Nokia shipped the decoder yet? I just found that libavcodec implementation today — It looks leagues better than the Xiph implementation, but none of the FOSStard projects I've seen use it — most link directly with liboggplay, or if they're transcoders use ffmpeg to decode the input to feed to libtheora. That'…

The DSP port is an API compatible port of libtheora. Anything that is linked against libtheora can make use of the DSP port simply by linking against it. Nokia haven't shipped a major OS release since the DSP port came out, so even if they were going to ship it and/or Fennec (I have no idea), they haven't had a chance to do so yet. It's probably worth pointing out that the DSP port is not specific to the N900 or Maemo at all. It targets the C64x+ DSP, which is part of the OMAP3 SoC. The N900, Motorola Droid, and Palm Pre all ship an OMAP3 that includes the DSP.

FFmpeg has an independent decoder but for encoding it uses libtheora. The FFmpeg decoder has traditionally been slower than libtheora and didn't implement all of the Theora spec. It implemented VP3 plus the part of the spec that the Theora 1.0 (and earlier) encoders produced, but failed to decode spec-compatible output from the Theora 1.1 encoder (which libtheora 1.0's decoder handles just fine). There has been a lot of development of the FFmpeg decoder recently, so most of these issues are fixed. It's possible that the decoder is faster than libtheora now (as of the last 2-3 months), but I haven't benchmarked it.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#127
post #54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, h.264 support is a really bad idea. With "Apple actually has patents in the h.264 licensing pool!" you scared atleast me away. So one competitor has patents and the competition should use that too? nooo, sir. So, dirac it shall be then? edit: Also you mention technical reason. My reasoning still is: This is not about technical reasons it is a pure political decision to get rid of competition in a shameless way…

The patent licensing is dirt cheap, the people paying in are almost exclusively hardware makers, shipping hundreds of millions of embedded devices a year. Apple having a few patents in the pool just makes a janitorial-sized line-item in their budget even cheaper since they get payments back too. Apple has paid to license a suite of codecs for every install since the dawn of Quicktime (though they charged $20 for an M…

The patents are cheap now while H.264 is a candidate for adoption as the de-facto standard in HTML5 video. In a few years, once H.264 HTML5 video is ubiquitous, and no one can watch anything online without a H.264 decoder, licenses won't be so cheap.

It is pretty dangerous to allow H.264 to become widespread here. It would represent a serious barrier to entry for upstart browser vendors. This is bad.

We want to invite as much competition as possible. It's true that if you only account for Mozilla, it's not that big of a deal, because at the end of the day they can afford to pay some licensing fees if they have to. It is a big deal for something like Midori or Epiphany or Konqueror or any other such projects because their usability will be strongly diminished by an inability to play online video. This is a bad thing.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#128
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how one can see that you are a mac/iPhone user.. You are, aren't you? ;) No, Apple stated that they don't support Theora "claiming that the lack of known patents on Theora doesn't rule out the threat of submarine patents that could eventually be used against adopters." http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/decoding-the... They also said that they have no hardwaredecoder, but this is just an excus…

What this all dances around is that, from a technical standpoint, the H.264 codec delivers superior results in nearly every situation that Apple, Microsoft, and Google want to use video. So why should they use Theora? Are we really making ideological arguments for technology decisions now? The way to stop patents from ossifying the tech industry is to stop filing patents . To do this, people like us are going to have…

"They're one of the majority shares of the browser market last time I looked." (Emphasis mine.)

There can be only one majority share by definition.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#129
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opera + Chrome + Mozilla (i.e. Theora supporting) market share varies by region but is probably over 50% in every european country bar the UK Why do Opera users always say something like this? "Opera (and the important browsers) has some huge market share!" 0.2 + 18 + 43 > 50, but the 0.2 really doesn't matter.

Wikipedia says that: "[Opera has] 20–25% market share in Russia, 25-30% Ukraine, and 5–9% in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and the Czech Republic" A bit more than 0.2

Why rely on "Wikipedia says"? Why not attribute it to the source Wikipedia uses?

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#130
post #49

Things I don't understand: * Fork? * H.264 HTML Video support via a plugin? Why aren't these valid solutions?

Yes, someone could fork Gecko + XULrunner + Firefox; but it is a huge pain-in-the-ass to even track it as upstream, much less diverge from it. It's purposefully architected to make a plugin very unsavory — you could do it with a plugin/extension that inspected every DOM for failed embeds, dynamically replacing them with an of its own NSAPI plugin. You'd be guaranteed to get FOUC, poor detectablity, and regular breaka…

"It's purposefully architected to make a plugin very unsavory"

I'd like a citation for this please, or at least some synthesis based on some explicit rationale (which is what I expected on the with that em dash, instead of a non-sequitur).

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