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How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

nytimes.com

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Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#31

Post by SonicSoul »

downandout wrote: post #22

For those of you that don't know, the primary character in this piece, James Grosjean, isn't just any advantage player, he is the advantage player. He wrote what is often referred to as the Bible of advantage play - Beyond Counting - and its sequel, Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting . Both of these books are incredibly hard to find, and when they do come up for sale, often sell for thousands of dollars. Here's a current l…

I know it might be judgmental and possibly hypocritical, but I can't help but think that kind of intellect and education is wasted on trying to beat a casino.

If money is the end goal, wouldn't there be a bigger opportunity in pursuing investment strategy ideas (i.e. market inefficiencies), or working on making some process more efficient that could disrupt some industry (i.e. spam/phishing detection, or deep learning) and have better chance of long term gains. I'd think casino strategies once discovered can be mitigated over time so all that hard work will payoff temporarily?

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#32

Post by gabemart »

ferentchak wrote: post #28
TheCowboy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that the idea, that consistently winning is possible, is partially a myth, but it persists among casino regulars. I know people who do this or have in the past, and the big problem is eventually getting banned from various casinos. It seems rather one-sided to me, but legally they're allowed to ban people for consistently winning.

My grandfather plays a video poker game called Deuces Wild and when the payouts are set just right and you play perfect you have a slightly over 100% payout. He has been playing for over a decade in Mesquite Nevada and has been making a slight profit year after year. When you add in points rewards you can end up doing ok in free steaks and massages. The casino knows he wins and is fine with it. My guess is that they…

Sounds like you are talking about what's often called "Full Pay" Deuces Wild

http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/deuces-wild...

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#33

Post by abduhl »

SonicSoul wrote: post #31
downandout wrote: post #22

For those of you that don't know, the primary character in this piece, James Grosjean, isn't just any advantage player, he is the advantage player. He wrote what is often referred to as the Bible of advantage play - Beyond Counting - and its sequel, Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting . Both of these books are incredibly hard to find, and when they do come up for sale, often sell for thousands of dollars. Here's a current l…

I know it might be judgmental and possibly hypocritical, but I can't help but think that kind of intellect and education is wasted on trying to beat a casino. If money is the end goal, wouldn't there be a bigger opportunity in pursuing investment strategy ideas (i.e. market inefficiencies), or working on making some process more efficient that could disrupt some industry (i.e. spam/phishing detection, or deep learnin…

People like this do what they do because they enjoy the challenge of a sophisticated adversary. The only other place this guy would be happy is crypto.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#34

Post by sbov »

bluecalm wrote: post #29
logicallee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just generally curious, you seem to know about this area. What are the new "blinded player methods"? I googled that phrase but didn't come up with anything.

I am just guessing but from the name it seems that it's about using one "naive and careful" player to observe the game and count the cards while placing small bets. Once the deck becomes advantageous the "wild gambler" joins and starts blasting huge bets. Of course the first player signaled a good moment to join. This way it doesn't look suspicious as no one altered their behavior (one early method to detect card cou…

This isn't new though, and is one of the most basic forms of team based card counting - it's how the MIT blackjack team did things. IIRC the "naive and careful" player is called the "spotter" and the "wild gambler" is called the "Gorilla".

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#35

Post by stronglikedan »

SonicSoul wrote: post #31
downandout wrote: post #22

For those of you that don't know, the primary character in this piece, James Grosjean, isn't just any advantage player, he is the advantage player. He wrote what is often referred to as the Bible of advantage play - Beyond Counting - and its sequel, Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting . Both of these books are incredibly hard to find, and when they do come up for sale, often sell for thousands of dollars. Here's a current l…

I know it might be judgmental and possibly hypocritical, but I can't help but think that kind of intellect and education is wasted on trying to beat a casino. If money is the end goal, wouldn't there be a bigger opportunity in pursuing investment strategy ideas (i.e. market inefficiencies), or working on making some process more efficient that could disrupt some industry (i.e. spam/phishing detection, or deep learnin…

I'm not familiar with James Grosjean, nor am I a gambler, but I would guess that James became addicted to gambling, and then used his intellect and education to make money doing what he loved.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#36

Post by abduhl »

bluecalm wrote: post #29
logicallee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just generally curious, you seem to know about this area. What are the new "blinded player methods"? I googled that phrase but didn't come up with anything.

I am just guessing but from the name it seems that it's about using one "naive and careful" player to observe the game and count the cards while placing small bets. Once the deck becomes advantageous the "wild gambler" joins and starts blasting huge bets. Of course the first player signaled a good moment to join. This way it doesn't look suspicious as no one altered their behavior (one early method to detect card cou…

No serious casino running a card game has allowed midshoe entry at a table for years now. This is method of counting is why.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#37

Post by criddell »

Waterluvian wrote: post #23
mmastrac wrote: post #2

> But when Sun was arrested in 2007 for a $93,000 gambling debt owed to MGM, she vowed revenge What? How is that legal?

Not legal in Canada. Debt isn't a criminal offense. I don't think they can arrest you. But maybe I'm confusing it for: they can't throw you in jail for debts.

The way the loan is structured, it's essentially a cheque. If you can be arrested for bouncing cheques, then you can be arrested for not paying the casinos.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#38

Post by yomly »

SonicSoul wrote: post #31
downandout wrote: post #22

For those of you that don't know, the primary character in this piece, James Grosjean, isn't just any advantage player, he is the advantage player. He wrote what is often referred to as the Bible of advantage play - Beyond Counting - and its sequel, Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting . Both of these books are incredibly hard to find, and when they do come up for sale, often sell for thousands of dollars. Here's a current l…

I know it might be judgmental and possibly hypocritical, but I can't help but think that kind of intellect and education is wasted on trying to beat a casino. If money is the end goal, wouldn't there be a bigger opportunity in pursuing investment strategy ideas (i.e. market inefficiencies), or working on making some process more efficient that could disrupt some industry (i.e. spam/phishing detection, or deep learnin…

A completely fair and pretty objective analysis from my perspective.

On the other hand, everyone has a calling or personal interests. These may be formed under any number of formative life experiences which shape an individual's personal bias.

Perhaps in the case of this guy, it's less about the money and more about the "game". The game being the cat and mouse chase of outsmarting the casinos, winning when the odds are stacked against you.

Could this person be doing something that is better value for time for himself or society? Probably, but maybe he'd never fulfill his full potential without the right motivation/inspiration...

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#39

Post by s_q_b »

te wrote: post #18
s_q_b wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will toss you out on your ass for any systemic card counting that actually works, especially the newer blinded player methods.

What are the "newer blinded player methods"? Google only finds your comment.

I'm aware of it from school. Essentially it's a variant on the MIT team running tally system for blackjack. In the original, players are called over to "hot" tables, based upon a running tally kept by other team members at each table. Details are widely available.

Casinos now use training and technology to differentiate surprise vs. expected wins. It also becomes fairly obvious to spot once one knows the trick. To obfuscate the technique, some players are called to average tables. As a result, the players don't know whether their table is hot at the time. The overall win percentage is lower, resulting in lower ROI, but it's much more effective.

Re: How 'Advantage Players' Game the Casinos

#40

Post by jv22222 »

SonicSoul wrote: post #31
downandout wrote: post #22

For those of you that don't know, the primary character in this piece, James Grosjean, isn't just any advantage player, he is the advantage player. He wrote what is often referred to as the Bible of advantage play - Beyond Counting - and its sequel, Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting . Both of these books are incredibly hard to find, and when they do come up for sale, often sell for thousands of dollars. Here's a current l…

I know it might be judgmental and possibly hypocritical, but I can't help but think that kind of intellect and education is wasted on trying to beat a casino. If money is the end goal, wouldn't there be a bigger opportunity in pursuing investment strategy ideas (i.e. market inefficiencies), or working on making some process more efficient that could disrupt some industry (i.e. spam/phishing detection, or deep learnin…

I think it's hard not to like what you like... When a problem space gets under your skin I bet it's pretty addictive.
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