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We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

blog.interviewing.io

351–360 of 369 posts

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#351
post #56
post #15

I would really have liked to see them check whether the gender-blinding actually worked. Even if someone's voice is modulated, they may have gendered behavior patterns that could influence someone's performance ratings. I wouldn't be surprised if I could guess the gender of a voice-modulated person pretty accurately from other cues. To combat this, they could have asked the interviewer during the performance assessme…

In the clips the modulated female ended up sounding like an effeminate man, which raises a whole other set of questions about bias.

There should have been a control experiment where a person's likeability, intelligence and "hirability" are assessed when both women and men say the same things with and without modulation to make sure it is really neutral.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing you can do that isn't blatant sexism if you want your ratio of female employees to be higher than the candidate pool ratio.

This is demonstrably not true. Suppose I have a pool of 100 candidates, 20% of whom are female. Suppose further that 10% of the pool (8 men, 2 women) meets my "bar", and are therefore people that I want to have in my company. But finally suppose that I only have budget for 2 people, not 10. By your logic, I should hire 2 men, because dividing that candidate pool in half leaves the women at "less than half of a person…

> Since we have already established that the candidates are in all other respects equal

No we haven't. We've established that the candidates are all people you want to hire. That doesn't mean you have no preference between them. It would be really weird if ten candidates all seemed equally competent.

And if you can rank them, ~2% of the time there'll be two women at the top, ~36% of the time there'll be a man and a woman, and the rest of the time there'll be two men.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#353

So we all realize technical interviews serve no practical purpose and should be quietly abandoned, but instead of looking into the future and discovering better ways of identifying talent, people keep inventing stuff that makes the torturing mechanism even more sophisticated so that the suffering can be prolonged. I'd like to see the people behind this project apply their technical skills to something more useful to…

Why do people in tech think "proving you can do your job" is unique to tech? Tons of industrues has practical interviews. Do you really think a roofer shows up and says "I know what I am doing, just take me on my word" and gets a job?

throwaway_xx9 I don't know why your post is dead, but your example is obviously silly. That is not applying for a job, that is contracting to an individual. You don't face a technical interview contracting to an individual in programming either. But if you apply for a job as a roofer with a construction company, you absolutely have a practical interview.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am with you 100%. We keep trying to invent ways to skew the hiring towards women. Let's just stop trying to candy-coat it. You want gender ratios, so just hire based on gender ratios and deal with the fallout. This narrative that women are somehow grossly discriminated against in tech doesn't hold water anywhere I see. Every tech company is desperate to hire more women engineers to increase their diversity quotient…

> You want gender ratios, so just hire based on gender ratios and deal with the fallout. That would be illegal, at least in the US.

So I realize this is delayed to your post and likely to be buried, but this brought such a fascinating thought that I couldn't not mention it.

I'm going to assert something first; you may chose to disagree, but my statement requires this lemma: We are (as a society/science/etc) absolutely _shit_ at most things psychology. Next to "food science" it's the field I give some of the least credence to findings in unless they are so massively replicated and built in an unrealistically airtight way. The very nature of these fields, the number of convoluting variables and our inability to even observe outcomes accurately makes the process of study extremely difficult, and "p-hacking" (as another comment elsewhere referenced in a very appropriate noun choice) becomes very feasible and less detectable. (As a "data-engineer/scientist/whatever we're called these days" I see this effect daily; it's a common topic in my office that often the desire from management is not to find a result, but for us to find the result that says what they want, and that's in often FAR more measurable and empirical spaces)

From this, my core question; if it is illegal to hire based on gender ratios, what about the process of adjusting your hiring practice, adjusting which findings you chose to perscribe to, such that you achieve the end ratio you desire?

To illustrate this I'll give an absurd example to demonstrate "feasibility": Let's say I'm actively racist and don't want to hire white people. I start by putting my hiring centers around inner city low cost residences; I preferentially hire lower income candidates "as a social program", and I hire with a bias based on referrals of existing candidates. I argue that my motive is achieved through a layer of "legal" "massage-able" legitimate decisions.

So the questions I'd leave with:

First, when do these stop being "reasonable choices" in isolation and start becoming a discriminatory strategy

Second, and regardless of my above, can you see why I might find the cut and dry statement of "hiring based on a desired gender ratios is illegal" VERY hypocritical in the current environment of EXTREMELY STRONG DESIRE to hire based on gender ratio, even if it's a "rectification"? (To this topic, I'm also curious tangentially in how affirmative action fit into this framework in the past, I understand the purpose and don't want to turn this into an argument of it's merits, but it seems like a prime example where the courts pulled off making discrimination legal, so the black and white statement of "IS ILLEGAL" seems like it's been dealt with in the past)

Finally, do you see the parallels I'm trying to draw, or can you find a flaw in the correlation?

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#355
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. We got rid of the gender bias. Very long ago, computer programming was seen as being like typing and/or secretarial work. It was seen as being unmanly. Compare with nursing and kindergarten teaching. A woman might get assigned to invent COBOL instead of being in charge of an aircraft carrier. Well, we got rid of the sexism. Happy now? Hmmm, guess not.

Your comment amused me a bit, so I wanted to write something in response. I work in metal fabrication, our workshop specialises in structural steel, so we are part of the general construction industry. We call ourselves 'boilermakers', though I've never worked on a boiler. Anyway, in the 17 years I've been doing this on and off, I have met precisely 1 female boilermaker. And nobody cares. What I don't follow is why i…

[deleted]

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#356
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aline from interviewing.io here. Great idea!

On a similar note, I'm wondering what will happen when somebody is perceived as gender non-conforming. Will a woman using a modulated voice to sound male come off as a woman disguising her voice, or will she come off as an effeminate gay man? There's a lot of stigma to being perceived as the latter.

> Will a woman using a modulated voice to sound male come off as a woman disguising her voice, or will she come off as an effeminate gay man?

The sample sounded more like an Englishman to me, not effeminate per se. I've noticed a lot of Americans feel western european accents like Danish/French/English to be 'gay-ish' if they haven't heard them before. Not sure what is going on there.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#358
post #39
post #15

I would really have liked to see them check whether the gender-blinding actually worked. Even if someone's voice is modulated, they may have gendered behavior patterns that could influence someone's performance ratings. I wouldn't be surprised if I could guess the gender of a voice-modulated person pretty accurately from other cues. To combat this, they could have asked the interviewer during the performance assessme…

Aline from interviewing.io here. Great idea!

I'm not sure if voice modulation is the answer or not, but very cool to see you working on this problem and trying things out. It's a difficult space and most are springing for short-sighted bandage solutions. Best of luck, and keep sharing your findings!

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#359
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. There are often differences in how people of different genders (and nationalities, interest groups, classes, educational levels, etc) express themselves regardless of the format, and modulating their voice doesn't really hide that. For example, I've run quite a few forums before, and I'm pretty confident I (and quite a lot of other forum admins/moderators) could reliably judge someone's gender t…

Of course completely dehumanizing the interviewer & interviewee expressly prevents any degree of culture fit selection, which could be bad for all parties.

Preventing culture fit is actually a feature, not a bug. Culture fit is a synonym for unconscious bias, and most people don't realize it.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#360
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's backwards. We got rid of the gender bias. Very long ago, computer programming was seen as being like typing and/or secretarial work. It was seen as being unmanly. Compare with nursing and kindergarten teaching. A woman might get assigned to invent COBOL instead of being in charge of an aircraft carrier. Well, we got rid of the sexism. Happy now? Hmmm, guess not.

Your comment amused me a bit, so I wanted to write something in response. I work in metal fabrication, our workshop specialises in structural steel, so we are part of the general construction industry. We call ourselves 'boilermakers', though I've never worked on a boiler. Anyway, in the 17 years I've been doing this on and off, I have met precisely 1 female boilermaker. And nobody cares. What I don't follow is why i…

There aren't a lot of females in waste management either (i.e., garbage men). I've heard it can be a pretty well-paying job too. No one says that we need more women waste management workers, truck drivers, or coal miners.
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