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Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

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101–110 of 134 posts

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#102
post #5

I like how Mozilla gets all the blame for refusing to support a non-free solution, instead of Google, Apple, and Microsoft for choosing a proprietary solution.

I think the idea that the article is “hating” or “blaming” Mozilla for anything is just a little bit overdoing it. To say the least. The article goes out of its way to empathise with and respect the Mozilla position.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd personally contend that MS, Apple, and Google didn't "choose proprietary," they chose 1) the current market leading format 2) ...that has the most video content available online already 3) ...that can be hardware accelarated 4) ...that offers the best quality to size ratio.

You're right of course. Free vs Non-Free had nothing to do with it. I just really hate how everyone is hating on Mozilla for making a choice that is consistent with their principles.

Consistency would only matter if Mozilla offered a better alternative, that had the potential to become a popular lead standard. They don't, so the only way for them out of this in my humble and limited point of view is to join Netscape in oblivion.

Of course, since I'm so humble, you can ignore me.

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#104
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying it's anti-competitive for companies to act in accordance with their own interests rather than go out of their way to support their competitors?

Yes. Why would acting in their own interests be assumed to be pro-competitive? The "invisible hand" that turns corporate self-interest into something socially beneficial only works when there is free competition and erecting barriers to entry (by excluding those who can't or won't pay patent fees) is by definition anti-competitive. This is why countries like China are pushing for royalty-free standards. Even communis…

If companies didn't act in their own interests there wouldn't be competition!

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Why would acting in their own interests be assumed to be pro-competitive? The "invisible hand" that turns corporate self-interest into something socially beneficial only works when there is free competition and erecting barriers to entry (by excluding those who can't or won't pay patent fees) is by definition anti-competitive. This is why countries like China are pushing for royalty-free standards. Even communis…

If companies didn't act in their own interests there wouldn't be competition!

Can I suggest to you that, if they were not barred from doing so by law, any rational and profit driven business would eventually merge with all its market rivals to form a monopoly and extract monopoly rents? I think the facts of history are on my side here (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act).

I am suggesting (in line with what I thought were the commonly accepted tenets of free market capitalism) that their self-interest be channelled, not that this motive is intrinsically bad, just that it is not intrinsically good since externalities and market failures can be exploited in the name of corporate self-interest without any compensating benefit to society.

"People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." -- Adam Smith

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#107
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying it's anti-competitive for companies to act in accordance with their own interests rather than go out of their way to support their competitors?

Yes. Why would acting in their own interests be assumed to be pro-competitive? The "invisible hand" that turns corporate self-interest into something socially beneficial only works when there is free competition and erecting barriers to entry (by excluding those who can't or won't pay patent fees) is by definition anti-competitive. This is why countries like China are pushing for royalty-free standards. Even communis…

Forgive me for not understanding, but if I can ask for further clarification--

In your last post, you said: "Anti-competitive actions are always pragmatic if you're not going to get punished for them." From this, I conclude that when you say "anti-competitive", you are referring to actions that ought to be punished. Then, I asked if it was anti-competitive for companies to act in accordance with their own interests instead of aiding competitors, to which you say yes.

From this, I conclude that you are saying that acting in one's own self-interest instead of aiding competitors ought to be punished.

Where have I made a mistake?

erecting barriers to entry (by excluding those who can't or won't pay patent fees)

I don't understand. Native h.264 support is not mandatory for competition or spec compliance. h.264 patent fees, and Mozilla's inability/choice to not pay them only constrain what they implement. It does not prevent them from competing or from adhering to the spec.

For a counter-example, Mozilla was the driving force behind having Theora made a mandatory part of the spec, which would have excluded any parties who couldn't or wouldn't implement it. Would that have been anti-competitive?

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#109
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I think the "chrome" in your post is a typo, do you mean Safari?) Apple doesn't support Theora in Safari because the iPhone doesn't have a Theora hardware decoder. They bluster a bit about submarine patents, but really, their refusal boils down to the iPhone. If desktop Safari supports Theora and the iPhone doesn't, users will complain. If playing some videos on the iPhone uses the battery faster than advertised, us…

It's funny how one can see that you are a mac/iPhone user.. You are, aren't you? ;) No, Apple stated that they don't support Theora "claiming that the lack of known patents on Theora doesn't rule out the threat of submarine patents that could eventually be used against adopters." http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/07/decoding-the... They also said that they have no hardwaredecoder, but this is just an excus…

It's funny how one can see that you are a mac/iPhone user.. You are, aren't you? ;)

I don't own a smartphone; if I did, it would never ever be an iPhone. I do own a macintosh laptop, but run Linux on it.

The reason I think the submarine patent is fake is that submarine patents are a risk for H.264 as well. MPEG LA are laying low until H.264 is widespread and they can really apply the thumbscrews; who know how many dozens of other companies are using the same strategy, biding their time until payday?

Re: Dear Mozilla, Please Don't Kill HTML5 Video

#110
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Why would acting in their own interests be assumed to be pro-competitive? The "invisible hand" that turns corporate self-interest into something socially beneficial only works when there is free competition and erecting barriers to entry (by excluding those who can't or won't pay patent fees) is by definition anti-competitive. This is why countries like China are pushing for royalty-free standards. Even communis…

Forgive me for not understanding, but if I can ask for further clarification-- In your last post, you said: " Anti-competitive actions are always pragmatic if you're not going to get punished for them. " From this, I conclude that when you say "anti-competitive", you are referring to actions that ought to be punished. Then, I asked if it was anti-competitive for companies to act in accordance with their own interests…

In an ideal world businesses would not behave anti-competitively and this would have great benefits for society.

In this particular real world you can't micromanage like that, and you'd end up with bad government if you even tried, but still companies are punished for the anti-competitive actions which are big or bad enough to be worth prosecuting, and are generally expected to refrain from doing so all by themselves. (Often they are encouraged to self-regulate by the threat of intrusive mandated regulation.)

I personally would prefer it if patents, standards bodies and a few other such institutions were reformed to encourage greater competition and prevent anti-competitive behaviour.

In the particular case of H.264 there are a range of problems with the current system, even before you bring web standards and browsers into the picture. Basically patents plus network effects are a bad mix and MPEG has the whole world on a patent upgrade treadmill. Ironically, standards were a previously successful tool to avoid proprietary vendor lock-in, but they have since been captured by the very organisations they were meant to regulate.

Making any royalty-free standard mandatory (e.g. Theora) is only an issue because of potential patent claims from trolls in general or MPEG-LA members specifically. This can and should be fixed in the patent system (e.g. China have announced plans to compulsorily licence patents that have claims on mandated standards, some US legal authorities suggest that it be your responsibility to notify standards bodies of patent issues or else you lose your patent rights, many EU member states don't consider MPEG "open" standards because they require royalties and so can't be used by government). Without that patent threat there is no substantive reason to not implement Theora (or any potential VP8 derived codec).

My own understanding is, even with the vagueness of the current patent system, that the groups who have refused to implement Theora have done so primarily because of influence brought to bear on them by MPEG-LA which makes any suggestion of anti-competitiveness of Theora circular since it relies on the existence of an anti-competive body which is using its power to prevent implementations of rival codecs.

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