Scrolling through the participants list, I'm so glad they asked black people and other minorities their opinion on the matter (if you're not familiar with sarcasm, let me rephrase - this is a long list of nearly 100% white people).
Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
91–100 of 126 posts
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
The "work culture" is built upon the very narrow understanding of 'work' that is prevalent in American culture: that of making money in a self-beneficial way. You don't have this kind of work culture when you're looking at people in the abstract and measuring their ability to benefit society.
If you believe that the only reason people work is to selfishly make money, then OK, there's not much convincing I can do here. It reminds me of the argument that supporting Brexit can only be accounted for by xenophobia or racism. Is it really true that that many people are bigots? Or maybe there is another explanation that isn't being accounted for? Either way, earning money is not a selfish thing - it requires ano…
I agree that earning money isn't selfish, but I think it's undeniable that America is a work culture. It's essentially viewed as morally bad to not have a job, even if you opt to live the kind of life that doesn't require a car, or thousands of dollars of furniture, etc. In my opinion the amount of money the average American spends on stupid shit is mindblowing, especially when you consider that almost everyone works a 40 hour week until age 60 or later.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is a simplistic but very ironic claim. One of the main problems with the existing social net is that it comes with "economic cliffs" where making a little more is not to your economic advantage. And then people who make the rational decision are seen as "lazy". For a real example, my niece had to turn down a job because it paid her $0.20 too much to stay on food stamps. And she couldn't be paid less because it wou…
Would the better job been the first in a series of steps to even better jobs/promotions in the future? Did that job have the same pay from now until retirement? Would a year of hard work in this job yield a raise that offset the loss to food stamps? If any of these are true, her's wasn't the rational decision, it was the most convenient, least risky decision.
You're talking about the "rational decision" as if there's only one value to optimize. If their "utility function" is described by more than just how much money they have/make, then it could be perfectly rational to turn down the job.
That being said I do agree that if there's a huge difference in future earning power, it would still generally worth it to go for the job that involves giving up food stamps.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#94"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…
Is there anything particularly Trump-esque about, "Work = being part of society?" Is your logic that anything Trump likes is automatically wrong? Or is that an entirely subjective appeal? My personal experience with periods of time where I was under-employed, is that "Work = being part of society." People feel better when they know they are actively contributing. That's just a simple truth.
>People feel better when they know they are actively contributing. That's just a simple truth.
I find this interesting, because it's a great example of some of the values implicit in American society.
Note that the way you expressed it, essentially the only way to contribute to society is by working a job. I don't think it's a stretch to claim that that's a very narrow-minded way of looking at it.
In my opinion American society is really, really good at all things economic, but really, really bad at actually enjoying/finding value in the things that go on outside the office.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#95> Work = being part of society That's a sad state of affairs.
Society is a group of people whose collaborative efforts are able to accomplish more than any one individual and more than simply a sum of individuals. That means 'work', which is another word for 'doing something for someone else'. It is selfish to believe that one can belong to a group of people and obtain the benefits without contributing to it.
I think perhaps you're being somewhat broad by defining work as doing anything for anyone else. Or maybe I'm being overly narrow by assuming they mean "have a job" by "work", something paid and typically contractual.
Would you class volunteering your time as work? How about developing open source software, or writing interesting short stories for fun? Painting? Being a parent? If you help a friend move house do you say you're "going to work"?
If you include everything that provides some value as "work" then sure. But I feel that there are a huge range of things that provide value to society that may not be paid for or done as a typical job.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yet being part of society is something that people desire deeply, so it's possible that they'll just make their own work. I found Tim O'Reilly's musing on Econtalk last year (link - http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/10/tim_oreilly_on.html ) to be persuasive - he posited that in a potential future where a min income is necessary, humans will spend a lot more time entertaining each other. Hey, Harry Potter was writ…
Why won't the people doing all that work to entertain each other earn an income for doing so, thus making it so a min income isn't necessary?
Then there is no safe way to fail. It would discourage innovation. You would have to stay with what works; even if you don't like it, it's getting harder to iterate, or there is a solid wall in the near future that you know you can't cross.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#97"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…
Certain part of a society are definitely different than other parts. For instance, children are definitely a part of the society, and a very important part, but they differ from grown-ups in many regards. For one thing, they are dependent on their parents / guardians. Other people, even totally grown up, may be considered so dependent on e.g. the government that they are not even allowed to vote due to the conflict o…
Maybe prejudices will develop, but choosing to work or choosing to subsist on UBI are entirely choices. It's racist to prejudice someone because of their skin color, skin color isn't a choice. It's mean to prejudice someone because of their hair style, hair style is a choice.
We already make similar prejudices now, for a number of reasons.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you believe that the only reason people work is to selfishly make money, then OK, there's not much convincing I can do here. It reminds me of the argument that supporting Brexit can only be accounted for by xenophobia or racism. Is it really true that that many people are bigots? Or maybe there is another explanation that isn't being accounted for? Either way, earning money is not a selfish thing - it requires ano…
I agree that earning money isn't selfish, but I think it's undeniable that America is a work culture. It's essentially viewed as morally bad to not have a job, even if you opt to live the kind of life that doesn't require a car, or thousands of dollars of furniture, etc. In my opinion the amount of money the average American spends on stupid shit is mindblowing, especially when you consider that almost everyone works…
Is it not at least equally as mindblowing as to how much the average American spends on life's bare necessities like shelter, food and health care?
And at least 2 of those are only as high because of greed and deliberately exclusionary policies.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
>UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! Why would you receive extra retirement payments on top of UBI? That would defeat the entire purpose of UBI.
healthcare is not an extra payment though. I think it is important to have a universal healthcare even with UBI.
I was referring the SS reference.
Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
>UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! Why would you receive extra retirement payments on top of UBI? That would defeat the entire purpose of UBI.
Well in that case it would be a rotten deal. Why would anyone want this crap instead of a normal pension?
We are referring to Social Security type programs, not private pensions.
I'm 32 have little doubt that my private retirement accounts will be seized through taxes by the time I retire, but that's a different issue.