Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#271

Post by linkregister » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 6:44 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #231

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Tax cheats. 26 U.S. Code § 7201 - Attempt to evade or defeat tax: "Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law" I have worked at companies performing the "double-irish". True, they aren't prosecuted. But legal? Because a british lawyer says it is? 26 U.S. Code § 7201 is extremely easy to r…

I think the taxes Google, Apple, et. al. are avoiding aren't imposed by that U.S. Code. The profits are not earned by U.S. Corporations; they're earned by alien corporations. In order for this regulation to cover these alien corporations, large parts of precedent, legislation, and regulation would have to be repealed/rewritten.

Intuitively, it feels bad. But until the profits actually come back to the U.S., the USG doesn't have much of a case.

I do think that EU countries, the EU parliament, and the European Council have a responsibility to their citizens to close these loopholes. It is not fair for Ireland to have a minor advantage (a few thousand jobs) at the cost of depriving other EU countries of billions of Euros of tax receipts.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#272

Post by khedoros » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 6:48 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #214

khedoros wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unethical != Illegal. If acting in an unethical manner causes a company fewer liabilities than acting ethically, which choice do you expect them (an amoral entity) to make? I expect that they'll keep pushing boundaries until it starts costing them.

Google infamously has an ethical clause in their mission statement, so we expect them to make a moral choice. Or is it a trick question?

> so we expect them to make a moral choice.

We do? Why? Because, by one interpretation, they pay lip service to it by saying "Don't be evil"/"Do the right thing"? I take those as marketing (both to the public and to their employees).

Even if we take their mottos as honest statements of intent, how do you know that their definitions of "evil" and "right" match yours? Or that their definitions won't shift to fit the situation?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#273

Post by lostlogin » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #216

spdy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a tax be in this category?

There are many ways a tax can be unethical. It may finance torture, invasion, and fomenting coups in undeveloped nations that lead to widespread suffering. For example.

To reply to a comment I can't reply to: spdy 7 minutes ago

But this is not the context we are talking about here. Spain is part of the EU and the so called "1st" world.

I'm not sure if you're being tongue in cheek or not, but the 1st world may have less repression and human rights violations but it doesn't have none. And member states have invaded other countries in recent memory, have been involved in torture, institutional racism, etc.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#274

Post by HappyDreamer » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:00 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #215

downandout wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to reduce their tax burden to the lowest possible levels. Assuming the tactics they embrace are legal, they are doing exactly what they can and should.

How does that thinking apply when you consider that companies actively lobby and work to affect the laws? Are you arguing that companies have a responsibility to change laws to maximize their profits? If a company could get a law passed that let them, say, remove all environmental restrictions, are you arguing that they should do that? Do their fiduciary responsibilities trump their social ones?

A super interesting question.

If a company attempts to abolish environmental restrictions, in order to, say, get to sell food with carcinogenic substances, and in that way make more money — then one viewpoint can be, that the company attempts to make money by killing people. I.e. attempted murder.

Therefore the executives and people at the company, responsible for lobbying / bribing politicians, in order to remove all environmental restrictions so that the company can sell poisonous food — they should go to prison.

Right now I think that's what I wish would happen.

Tax evasion (= money "only"), though, is very different from removing environmental restrictions (= killing people).

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#275

Post by bobwaycott » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #264

bobwaycott wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You appear to be responding to things I have not said. No suggestion at all of right amounts or paying more than the law requires.

No, your comment quite clearly implies that the corporations should not utilize the tax laws to pay the minimum required amount of taxes. You use words like 'avoid' to imply that it's evasion, but it's 'avoiding' in the same way as someone who 'avoids' taxes by taking a deduction for a dependent.

No, you've misread and inserted your own ideas as what I meant. The comment I replied to used 'avoid' in describing 'optional taxes'. I reused the word in disagreeing with the notion there are optional taxes, particularly as these allegedly optional taxes were suggested as taxes a corporation took action specifically to avoid.

[Edit]: Moreover, you still fail to address how I've suggested any notion of right amounts or paying more than the law requires. I have not. Since the comment I replied to used 'avoid', and you think avoid implies evading taxes, then you seem to assert I should understand the GP to be saying optional taxes are those taxes a company can take action to evade. This is even more problematic.

The effort a corporation expends to avoid taxes, such as those under scrutiny in the matter at hand, are not at all homologous to electing to take a dependent exemption for an individual citizen. Reducing one's tax bill via deductions and elected credits is not the same as going to great lengths to create special structures that enable a corporation to avoid tax bills altogether.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#276

Post by bobwaycott » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #269

bobwaycott wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, like your sibling respondent, appear to be replying to things I have not said. No suggestion was made for maximizing taxes or overpaying. Also, I didn't express myself in an insulting way. You've edited this comment a few times now, and it's cool to just stick with the actual topic. I made no insults.

" That you cannot think of such an argument doesn't mean much. That such possible arguments wouldn't obtain "legitimacy" in your mind explains far more about your conception of the role of business in society. "

That is not an insult.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#277

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:06 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #271

ransom1538 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax cheats. 26 U.S. Code § 7201 - Attempt to evade or defeat tax: "Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law" I have worked at companies performing the "double-irish". True, they aren't prosecuted. But legal? Because a british lawyer says it is? 26 U.S. Code § 7201 is extremely easy to r…

I think the taxes Google, Apple, et. al. are avoiding aren't imposed by that U.S. Code. The profits are not earned by U.S. Corporations; they're earned by alien corporations. In order for this regulation to cover these alien corporations, large parts of precedent, legislation, and regulation would have to be repealed/rewritten. Intuitively, it feels bad. But until the profits actually come back to the U.S., the USG d…

[deleted]

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#278

Post by refurb » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:08 PM UTC

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Yes, but it's the gov't who decides what the actual tax laws are, right? The corporations are just following those laws.

If the gov't wants to put an end to this behavior, they can. They just need to change the laws.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#279

Post by refurb » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:10 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #270

hueving wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to overpay on your taxes as well. I assume based on your reasoning that you give the government your entire income minus expenses. Governments have the ability to levy taxes. If they need money they should levy a tax. It's that simple. There is no 'right amount' that a company should be paying that is more than the law requires them to pay.

I would love to give all my income minus expenses. I could easily make it so I have zero after my expenses. But that's not how things work for individuals... and that's a large part of the difference.

Maybe a better analogy is don't take advantage of the tax relief as laid out in the law.

The tax authorities wouldn't stop you if you decided not to deduct your 401k contributions from your income. Or to not deduct your mortgage interest.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#280

Post by ransom1538 » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #271

ransom1538 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax cheats. 26 U.S. Code § 7201 - Attempt to evade or defeat tax: "Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law" I have worked at companies performing the "double-irish". True, they aren't prosecuted. But legal? Because a british lawyer says it is? 26 U.S. Code § 7201 is extremely easy to r…

I think the taxes Google, Apple, et. al. are avoiding aren't imposed by that U.S. Code. The profits are not earned by U.S. Corporations; they're earned by alien corporations. In order for this regulation to cover these alien corporations, large parts of precedent, legislation, and regulation would have to be repealed/rewritten. Intuitively, it feels bad. But until the profits actually come back to the U.S., the USG d…

"The profits are not earned by U.S. Corporations; they're earned by alien corporations." These alien corporations are then owned by proxy by US corporations, THUS a violation of 26 U.S. Code § 7201. It isn't a "it feels bad" thing, this is just a felony.