Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

igmchicago.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 126 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#21

Post by apalmer »

rubidium wrote: post #7

I don't know a better way to put this. The whole UBI idea that shows up here a lot (e.g. https://stratechery.com/2016/the-brexit-possibility/ ) is just naive. And now we have a nice poll of the experts to justify that judgement. UBI of $13k has the same support from experts as does denying climate change.

UBI, is one of those things I just cannot logically compute. I am completely in support of the end goals of UBI. Just cannot fathom how UBI can even theoretically works.

It seems to ignore Economics, Game Theory, and Human Nature. I just dont understand how it could rationally be viewed as a workable solution.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#22

Post by abannin »

jaimeyap wrote: post #2

The formulation of the question frames Social Security and Medicare as being mutually exclusive with a UBI. UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! I am a huge fan of UBI, and I would have voted "disagree" the way that question was framed. A better formulation would be to frame UBI as an "automation dividend". Where we dip into increased efficiencies produced b…

Isn't Social Security just age restricted basic income? It seems strange to have UBI and then give citizens another check after they hit retirement age.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#23

Post by wang_li »

Retric wrote: post #8
eanzenberg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile the massive increase in spending this would cause?

A flater tax rate would make up a large chunk of the difference. Basicly, at 50k you still get UBI, but it's offset by new taxes to leave your after tax income more or less the same. At 25k, you pay a lot more in taxes, but get a UBI for a net gain. At 0k you just get UBI, not food stamps ect. There would probably be a net cost increase, but as SS counts as regular income it's not going to be huge for most retires. A…

I thought the U stood for universal. If you take it back in new taxes, it's just a transfer program from productive to non-productive.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#24

Post by chimeracoder »

1024core wrote: post #9
eanzenberg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile the massive increase in spending this would cause?

I keep asking the same question; and all I get, basically, is that the money will just appear from somewhere. What will happen to all the non-profits and government departments that are built around providing "services" to the poor, homeless, etc.? It's a huge industry, and it's not going down without a fight. In the meantime, you have added a few trillion dollars in annual spending to the budget.

> It's a huge industry, and it's not going down without a fight.

It's not just that it's 'not going down without a fight' - these services are essential for people in need.

These services provide them with more than just financial assistance. Given them money (and doing away with the services) only solves the problem if you assume that lack of money is the only problem. Which it's not - it's one aspect of the problem, but not the only issue for people in need.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#25

Post by brooklyndavs »

IanCal wrote: post #12

> Work = being part of society That's a sad state of affairs.

I agree. If I'm unemployed I'm not part of society? What if I still get out of the house? Volunteer? Attend social gatherings? What if I'm retired? Am I not part of society? Who defines what is "work" in the future anyway?

> Lots of conflicting incentives that can discourage work in the existing rules.

Its sad to see this sentiment echoed. Especially considering how some jobs are just useless/white collar welfare (some middle management at large organizations I've been a part of in the past come to mind) or how some jobs will continue to be automated in the future. Work shouldn't be the most important thing that defines ones worth as an adult in our society!

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#26

Post by cheald »

Retric wrote: post #8
eanzenberg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile the massive increase in spending this would cause?

A flater tax rate would make up a large chunk of the difference. Basicly, at 50k you still get UBI, but it's offset by new taxes to leave your after tax income more or less the same. At 25k, you pay a lot more in taxes, but get a UBI for a net gain. At 0k you just get UBI, not food stamps ect. There would probably be a net cost increase, but as SS counts as regular income it's not going to be huge for most retires. A…

You're effectively describing a negative income tax, not UBI.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#27

Post by maxerickson »

abannin wrote: post #22
jaimeyap wrote: post #2

The formulation of the question frames Social Security and Medicare as being mutually exclusive with a UBI. UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! I am a huge fan of UBI, and I would have voted "disagree" the way that question was framed. A better formulation would be to frame UBI as an "automation dividend". Where we dip into increased efficiencies produced b…

Isn't Social Security just age restricted basic income? It seems strange to have UBI and then give citizens another check after they hit retirement age.

The retirement part of Social Security is conditional. The amount of the benefit is determined based on working salary and there is a (fairly minimal) amount of working years that must be recorded to receive it.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10070.pdf

The disability system is different (but also obviously conditional).

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#29

Post by vkou »

aresant wrote: post #17

"It might also shift the norm whether to work. Work = being part of society " - Markus Brunnermeier(1) I love how simply Markus arrived at the fundamental political issue with Basic Income in the USA: American culture and society is a "work culture". If you're not working you're not part of society. That's a very plain and powerful statement that is central to many of the gut-reaction trump-esque disparaging argument…

Unless you're rich. If you're rich, and not working, your opinions are valued and respected.

Re: Universal Basic Income – Poll Results from IGM Economic Experts Panel

#30

Post by lumberjack »

abannin wrote: post #22
jaimeyap wrote: post #2

The formulation of the question frames Social Security and Medicare as being mutually exclusive with a UBI. UBI ought to replace things like food stamps and welfare. Not healthcare or retirement benefits! I am a huge fan of UBI, and I would have voted "disagree" the way that question was framed. A better formulation would be to frame UBI as an "automation dividend". Where we dip into increased efficiencies produced b…

Isn't Social Security just age restricted basic income? It seems strange to have UBI and then give citizens another check after they hit retirement age.

What? No. People worked for that money. It's more like a mandated savings account or mandatory old age insurance or something like that.
Post reply on HN