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Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

reuters.com

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Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#161

Post by goodplay »

qsymmachus wrote: post #151
wyager wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

This is why abuse of rights is an important legal principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_of_rights Rational != Ethical

The parent raises a good point though: Tax law is extremely complex when it doesn't need to be. The only justification for this complexity (that I could come up with) is exactly that it's complex to enable tax evasion/tax burden minimization.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#162

Post by ComodoHacker »

deelowe wrote: post #106
ComodoHacker wrote: post #96

IMO Google is so rich and so profitable that it could afford to pay all taxes due in all countries fairly, without any "optimization", while staying profitable and not undermining any R&D program or long-term project.

Google's infrastructure is almost all custom. There's a lot of people who would be out of a job if there was suddenly a >30% premium added to Google's infrastructure when compared to OEMs. If you want the laws to change, change the laws. The issue is the government, not the companies that are simply playing by the rules.

Sorry, I don't get the part about comparison to OEMs. Could you elaborate? And what OEMs do you mean?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#163

Post by Joeri »

wyager wrote: post #114
melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

A government cannot provide its people with justice, human rights and quality of life without money, money that as a society we have chosen to collect through taxes. For better or worse, corporations have chosen (and legally fought for) the right to be treated as persons. That makes them part of the society and obligated to contribute to the society in the same way as every person. When they then dodge paying their fair share of taxes they act unethically and in violation of the needs of society and humanity. This behavior should not be glorified, it should be vilified and punished.

I can definitely fault them for trying to minimize their tax burden. Taxes shouldn't be seen as a burden, they should be seen as an opportunity. A way to contribute to the society that created that opportunity to pay taxes in the first place, since every dollar paid in taxes represents several earned on top of society's foundation.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#164

Post by defen »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #109
defen wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is fine, but isn't an income tax and isn't a tax on Google. It kind of is, though, isn't it? The online ad market is theoretically super efficient - if the market clearing price for an ad is $1, and then you add a 10% sales tax, it no longer makes sense to bid / pay $1 for that ad, knowing that you will be out of pocket $1.10. Instead you would bid about 90-91 cents, knowing that it would get marked up to $1…

> It kind of is, though, isn't it? The online ad market is theoretically super efficient - if the market clearing price for an ad is $1, and then you add a 10% sales tax, it no longer makes sense to bid / pay $1 for that ad, knowing that you will be out of pocket $1.10. Instead you would bid about 90-91 cents, knowing that it would get marked up to $1 with tax. Net effect is that Google only makes 90 cents on that ad…

Is there a reason that tax couldn't be imposed on the buyer, collected by Google at time of "sale" (click through by customer on ad), and remitted to the government, regardless of buyer origin? In other words, if I live in Montana (no sales tax) and I pay Google to display ads in Spain, I don't see a good reason to not have to pay Spain's "sales tax" (or whatever we're calling it) on those ads. I don't see why it should matter where the ad buyer lives, or where the ad clicker lives. I'm paying an entity in Spain, therefore the entity in Spain is taxed (and that higher cost ultimately flows back to me, the buyer). Or am I not really paying the Spanish entity when I buy those ads?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#165

Post by pherq »

threatofrain wrote: post #132
Gargoyle wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those absurd tax environments are in no way created by companies and their money. Not at all.

Do legislators not possess primary responsibility for their own actions?

This entire (sub)thread was started about how companies shouldn't be the ones blamed because legislators make it sweet for them to do so, why should the legislators bought by the companies foot all of the blame?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#166

Post by ghurtado »

spacehome wrote: post #117
ghurtado wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That thought is so misguided it doesn't even warrant a rebuttal.

No such thing. Every misguided thought deserves a rebuttal. Just admit you're too lazy to do it. That's fine.

Nothing to do with laziness. It's a matter of pragmatism. Some wild conspiracy theories are so out of touch with reality that engaging in correction or education (a rebuttal) is a futile effort and a complete waste of time.

If I told you that "I can't speak freely because agents of the shadow government are watching my every move via microchips implanted into my brain at birth", would you really take the trouble to respond with a rational rebuttal? By your own standard, would you be lazy not to do it?

I find it seriously hard to believe that you live your life by the motto that "every misguided thought deserves a rebuttal". You'd be an extremely busy person if that were the case.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#167

Post by x3n0ph3n3 »

Joeri wrote: post #163
wyager wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

A government cannot provide its people with justice, human rights and quality of life without money, money that as a society we have chosen to collect through taxes. For better or worse, corporations have chosen (and legally fought for) the right to be treated as persons. That makes them part of the society and obligated to contribute to the society in the same way as every person. When they then dodge paying their f…

> Taxes shouldn't be seen as a burden, they should be seen as an opportunity.

What a load of garbage. Taxes are theft at the end of a gun and we have little choice in how they are used. It's downright ignorant to believe that most taxes are used for the betterment of society rather than to line the pockets of select constituencies. Your conflation of "society" with "government" is fictitious.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#168

Post by antr »

wyager wrote: post #114
melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments? I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

I'm an energy investor and get to work with tax advisors and lawyers very often in order to maximise tax structures and cash repatriation. Everything we do is approved by tax authorities and positively seen by our shareholders. I agree to a certain extent with you that companies are acting rationally. I can assure you it's my responsibility to make the best use of these tools.

However, the direct and indirect pressure large companies exert on governments to promote/create these loopholes is absurd. I recently went to a latin american country which is promoting foreign investment. Guess what tools they are using to promote such FDI? Correct, tax credits, tax agreements with tax heavens, zero withholding taxes on dividends, etc. I won't go into more detail, but I've seen obscene (but legal) tax structures were little-to-no corporate taxes nor capital gains taxes have been paid in +billion euro transactions.

IMHO, this is unfair to everyday citizens. Citizens end up taking the burden of supporting the govt budget, at the expense of higher tax rates.

Unfortunately in the EU, there is very little interest from countries like The Netherlands, Ireland, and Luxembourg in implementing a common fiscal policy, with no loopholes, as this would considerably damage their "competitive" economies.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#169

Post by walterstucco »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #75
josephg wrote: post #16

I would expect google to keep all financial documents inside Google Drive. In doing so, I wonder what is left in the office for the Spanish authorities to find in a raid? (Google is ruthlessly paperless internally.)

Spain, and other Euro countries, have "paper" laws. Everything needs to be printed out and stored to make raids like these easier on the government. It also keeps their tax authority from ever having to worry about modernizing and, frankly, makes it easier for the government to manufacture "irregularities." I think the financial crisis in some of these EU countries have reached a point where they are politically para…

there 's absolutely no strong leftism in the electorate in Europe where did you see it?

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#170

Post by walterstucco »

patrickaljord wrote: post #91
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain, and other Euro countries, have "paper" laws. Everything needs to be printed out and stored to make raids like these easier on the government. It also keeps their tax authority from ever having to worry about modernizing and, frankly, makes it easier for the government to manufacture "irregularities." I think the financial crisis in some of these EU countries have reached a point where they are politically para…

Not sure why you're being downvoted. I'm French and totally agree with your views except maybe that right wings here are just as leftist economically so I'm very pessimistic for the future.

it's the leftists that are following right wings politics...
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