Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#111

Post by melenaboija » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking.

These companies play in an absolutely different league than employees, self employed and small companies in Europe where they make you pay strictly all the taxes to mantain our social structure. They have big teams of lawyers, financial experts and advisors specialized in tax havens just to make grow their revenues in billions avoiding to pay taxes in the countries they have presence.

Totally unfair for regular people like me.

http://www.uspirgedfund.org/reports/usp/offshore-shell-games...

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#112

Post by mancerayder » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #75

josephg wrote: post #16

I would expect google to keep all financial documents inside Google Drive. In doing so, I wonder what is left in the office for the Spanish authorities to find in a raid? (Google is ruthlessly paperless internally.)

Spain, and other Euro countries, have "paper" laws. Everything needs to be printed out and stored to make raids like these easier on the government. It also keeps their tax authority from ever having to worry about modernizing and, frankly, makes it easier for the government to manufacture "irregularities." I think the financial crisis in some of these EU countries have reached a point where they are politically para…

Milking the multinationals is too bold a statement.

Consider that Europe has had austerity in several countries. The average person was told that they needed to suffer fiscally for a few years (in terms of social services being trimmed and taxes not going down, sometimes going up) in order to redress spending imbalances and show the bond markets that things are under control. Meanwhile, we learn that the very largest, cash-rich, profitable companies in the world are paying little tax compared to other companies and small businesses, all because of special tax treatment in some countries. Is it any surprise that politicians have to act on that? This is the connection.

And someone below said that the HN forum is far left. That's a little rich, pun intended, given that many of the people who contribute are directly related to venture capital, or own lots of stock or are self employed, or just wealthy. Sometimes the world can't as easily be broken into left and right.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#113

Post by rs999gti » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

Kristine1975 wrote: post #17

josephg wrote: post #16

I would expect google to keep all financial documents inside Google Drive. In doing so, I wonder what is left in the office for the Spanish authorities to find in a raid? (Google is ruthlessly paperless internally.)

>Google is ruthlessly paperless internally. Not if they have to keep information on paper to comply with the law.

> Not if they have to keep information on paper to comply with the law.

This really means print on demand.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#114

Post by wyager » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

melenaboija wrote: post #111

I don't think there is a justification for big corporations to do what they do and they have to be pursued. I've been working for a bank in a tax haven in Europe and I've seen that financial engineering powerful people use has been a known and accepted tool for the governments for a while, and now that Europe is living a financial crisis governments start asking. These companies play in an absolutely different league…

Why are you blaming the companies for acting rationally, rather than the governments for creating absurd tax environments?

I agree it's unfair, but I can't fault anyone for trying to legally minimize their tax burden. Tax law should just be simple enough that anyone can do it themselves.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#115

Post by pfortuny » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:35 PM UTC

peralta wrote: post #103

pfortuny wrote: post #60

Another PR stunt of the minister, Montoro. No more than that. He also makes public a lost of debtors to the IRS (which should be illegal but he gets away with anything). Edit: Spaniard here.

It might be PR, but he's just basically following the law and not breaking it. Spanish IRS (Hacienda) must publish the list of debtors who owe more than €1M by law.

You are right. However, as with everything, he (Montoro) does as he wishes: they started doing this just last year... the Law comes from 2003.

Last year we started the cycle of these lists. Last year was... election year!

Edit: last year, not two ago.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#116

Post by jernfrost » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #75

josephg wrote: post #16

I would expect google to keep all financial documents inside Google Drive. In doing so, I wonder what is left in the office for the Spanish authorities to find in a raid? (Google is ruthlessly paperless internally.)

Spain, and other Euro countries, have "paper" laws. Everything needs to be printed out and stored to make raids like these easier on the government. It also keeps their tax authority from ever having to worry about modernizing and, frankly, makes it easier for the government to manufacture "irregularities." I think the financial crisis in some of these EU countries have reached a point where they are politically para…

You are presenting a completely biased and anti-european view, looking at multinationals with the most rose tinted glasses.

Google, like many other multinationals pay absolutely minuscule taxes. They have eradicated large parts of national advertisement companies across Europe, who all have to pay normal tax rates, while Google pays close to zero.

You are not a leftwing nutjob just because you want companies to pay taxes for the money they earn in your country. A free market relies on a level playingfield and when multinationals can exploit loopsholes in this manner it distorts the competition.

I am not sure why you single out Euro countries as not interested in modernizing. I can't speak for other European countries but I can speak for Norway where I am from and our taxation system is decades ahead of archaic mess found in the US e.g. The fact that a large part of the American population have to pay professionals to fill out their taxes says something about the complexity and backwardness of the system.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#117

Post by spacehome » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:37 PM UTC

ghurtado wrote: post #79

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #64

Spain shaking down Google, while the US shakes down VW. A trade war by any other name...

That thought is so misguided it doesn't even warrant a rebuttal.

No such thing. Every misguided thought deserves a rebuttal. Just admit you're too lazy to do it. That's fine.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#118

Post by dspillett » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

comboy wrote: post #46

dspillett wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder what they expect to find? Paperwork that contradicts statements the company has made, which would be shredded long before an inspector's arrival should a more formal appointment be arranged. > Or whether it is just a display of force. This is usually a factor in such raids too, but it only works if there is a chance something might be found so they wouldn't do it purely as a show of force.

So, I'm not an expert in tax evasion, but if you give false statements to the tax office, why would you keep statements that can bring you down on paper in your office?

Business as usual.

The false statements are saying that "business as usual" is something else.

If BaU isn't something else then the statement isn't false and there is nothing to find (the paperwork will match the statements made).

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#119

Post by spacehome » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

ComodoHacker wrote: post #108

spacehome wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Google shareholder, I'm quite happy that they optimize everything within the bounds of the law.

Monsters of such scale should be viewed from different points, including social responsibility. BTW why do you bother as a shareholder, do you receive any dividends?

I don't have the slightest idea if they pay dividends. I own Google shares indirectly via ownership of index funds.

Re: Spanish authorities raid Google offices over tax

#120

Post by drzaiusapelord » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 3:40 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #105

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #98

>Not sure why you're being downvoted. HN is pretty intolerant of anything that isn't the far left, which is a bit ironic for what's supposed to be an entrepreneurial forum. This change seemed to happen a year or two ago. I suspect HN has been fully "redditized" now with college identity politics being the prominent narrative. The drive-by downvotes are just a symptom of that.

(Off-topic meta-conversation.) HN tends to downvote any political comments, especially comments that turn the discussion more political, even in a story that already tangentially touches on politics. The HN guidelines more-or-less document the former; the latter seems like a natural consequence. In general, politics is almost always off-topic here; there are many other places to discuss politics. (Personally, I tend…

>HN tends to downvote any political comments

This is, by far, the most political site I go to. The top comments are often politicized and the top stories are typical social media "outrage" stories.

I think you're painting a picture of HN that really doesn't exist, but did probably long ago. HN now suffers from the 'eternal September' many popular forums do. Techy forum participants are often high school and college students with far left anti-US views common in youth. Its no surprise that these viewpoints are the dominant narrative here.

I imagine there are people who downvote all politics, but they are clearly a minority here. The downvote button is just a agree/disagree button in practice and shows an obvious political bias.