Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health • Hacker News Board

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#11

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:06 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #8

> "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." I wonder if this ends up saving thousands of lives by decreasing fatigue in drivers. The blue light argument seems like absolute hogwash; we're exposed to orders of magnitude brighter blue light every day. It's called daylight, and the streetlights dont't even emit UV.

If you don't get tired at night, you don't sleep well, and sleep deprivation is much worse than being tired.

If you think the problem with light at night is hogwash you need to read it again. Bright light, especially blue light makes your body react like it's daytime. Do you really think people have forgotten about the sun? You only hurt your own understanding by being so quick to dismiss others.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#12

Post by patrickmn » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:08 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #8

> "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." I wonder if this ends up saving thousands of lives by decreasing fatigue in drivers. The blue light argument seems like absolute hogwash; we're exposed to orders of magnitude brighter blue light every day. It's called daylight, and the streetlights dont't even emit UV.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#13

Post by joshkpeterson » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:11 AM UTC

chiefofgxbxl wrote: post #10

abootstrapper wrote: post #7

Could we just place a lens of some sort on pre existing led street lights to decrease the amount of blue light emitted?

A filter to block out a bit of the excess blue light? This would reduce the effectiveness of the light output though, unless you amped up the output to raise all of the colors and then selectively suppressed the blue to help balance it out. Then this would require extra energy, which defeats the purpose of using LEDs to save energy.

You can just use a different color of LED. Honestly people in Seattle, where these LED lamps were first piloted, have been raising these concerns for at least 4 years. This is the product of some combination of bad design, a lack of user-centered thinking at the utilities, and less than ideal incentives.

For example, daylight led's were touted as making it easier to identify cars involved in criminal activity because you can see the color of the vehicle more easily. But how many times has this actually made the difference in solving a crime?

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#14

Post by NetTechM » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:19 AM UTC

I would argue that people with those crazy LED headlights are even worse. Since I often work late, I get the pleasure of being temporarily blinded as a white dwarf passes by at 45mph regularly.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#15

Post by mullingitover » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:20 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #11

mullingitover wrote: post #8

> "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." I wonder if this ends up saving thousands of lives by decreasing fatigue in drivers. The blue light argument seems like absolute hogwash; we're exposed to orders of magnitude brighter blue light every day. It's called daylight, and the streetlights dont't even emit UV.

If you don't get tired at night, you don't sleep well, and sleep deprivation is much worse than being tired. If you think the problem with light at night is hogwash you need to read it again. Bright light, especially blue light makes your body react like it's daytime . Do you really think people have forgotten about the sun? You only hurt your own understanding by being so quick to dismiss others.

> Bright light, especially blue light makes your body react like it's daytime.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm well aware of the melatonin-reducing effects of blue light, but the streetlights are a drop in the bucket compared to phones, televisions, and tablets. The one time I actually want to have my melatonin levels suppressed is when it's late and I'm operating heavy machinery.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#16

Post by Bluestrike2 » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:21 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #8

> "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." I wonder if this ends up saving thousands of lives by decreasing fatigue in drivers. The blue light argument seems like absolute hogwash; we're exposed to orders of magnitude brighter blue light every day. It's called daylight, and the streetlights dont't even emit UV.

The main issue doctors are alarmed about is how the increased blue light affects circadian rhythm and not the fact that we're exposed to it. Our bodies interpret blue light as a signal that it's daylight and we should be active. All sorts of biological processes are tied to it. Significant blue light at night screws the entire system up.

Focused blue light can improve alertness and other functions. That's why light therapy has seen some significant successes in treating seasonal affective disorder, some forms of depression, and other disorders. But there's no free lunch involved here; you're more or less manipulating your circadian rhythm, and eventually, those periods of increased alertness are effectively offset. With the light therapy and SAD example, that's exactly what you want to do: you're effectively telling your body that it's daytime, you need to be active instead of sluggish, and winter is just trying to screw with you. It should help eliminate oversleeping (common with SAD), but that doesn't mean you suddenly need less sleep. The same thing would apply here as well.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#17

Post by parennoob » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

brenschluss wrote: post #6

Title is misleading; it's not LED streetlights, it's the color temperature of LED streetlights. While the article raises a few good points, color temperature isn't new; it's not like LEDs have some inherent issue that impacts health.

As long as a sizeable majority of LED streetlight in current usage have the blue color temperature (currently, as far as I know all, or almost all of them do), that's an acceptable approximation.

In any case, the original article's title mentions white LED streetlights -- so I guess making that clear in the title here might help.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#18

Post by tacos » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:26 AM UTC

patrickmn wrote: post #12

mullingitover wrote: post #8

> "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." I wonder if this ends up saving thousands of lives by decreasing fatigue in drivers. The blue light argument seems like absolute hogwash; we're exposed to orders of magnitude brighter blue light every day. It's called daylight, and the streetlights dont't even emit UV.

Related: https://justgetflux.com/research.html

Perhaps not the most neutral source for information. I found their summaries of paywalled articles to be a bit... misleading. They'll sell you Swarovski crystals and Himalayan salt lamps though.

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#19

Post by cauterized » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:26 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #8

> "In addition to its impact on drivers, blue-rich LED streetlights operate at a wavelength that most adversely suppresses melatonin during night." I wonder if this ends up saving thousands of lives by decreasing fatigue in drivers. The blue light argument seems like absolute hogwash; we're exposed to orders of magnitude brighter blue light every day. It's called daylight, and the streetlights dont't even emit UV.

Surely then we could use blue-white LEDs on highways an in commercial areas where most of the driving time is spent and warmer colors in residential areas that are just the last minute or two of the drive and are where people are trying to sleep?

Re: Doctors issue warning about effects of LED streetlights on health

#20

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:27 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #15

Dylan16807 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't get tired at night, you don't sleep well, and sleep deprivation is much worse than being tired. If you think the problem with light at night is hogwash you need to read it again. Bright light, especially blue light makes your body react like it's daytime . Do you really think people have forgotten about the sun? You only hurt your own understanding by being so quick to dismiss others.

> Bright light, especially blue light makes your body react like it's daytime. You're preaching to the choir. I'm well aware of the melatonin-reducing effects of blue light, but the streetlights are a drop in the bucket compared to phones, televisions, and tablets. The one time I actually want to have my melatonin levels suppressed is when it's late and I'm operating heavy machinery.

Even when it screws up those levels for hours after you get out of the car?

We could mandate that people driving at night must drink at least one cup of coffee per half hour, and it would make them be more awake in the short term, but it would be a terrible idea for similar reasons.