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Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

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Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#71

Post by rayiner »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #62
rayiner wrote: post #2

> It proposes investments in computer science and engineering education . . . and attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. These sound good in theory, but in effect they're an industry-specific labor subsidy. When the government "invests" in STEM education, what happens is that the companies that need to hire engineers save money both as a result of reduced training costs…

Nothing you said is restricted to STEM education. Do you favor eliminating subsidies for K-12 as well? If not, why not?

I think education occupies a range on the continuum between public and private goods. Basic literacy probably yields positive externalities, but specialized, employment-targeted skills mainly benefit the employee and employer.

That said, I think K-12 could probably be 1-8 and yield similar positive externalities.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#72

Post by sremani »

simonh wrote: post #3

Interesting. I expect a series of highly detailed policy announcements on complex issues from Hillary over the coming months. I'm guessing she's realised Trump will be completely out of his depth on anything like this and unable to respond effectively.

HRC probably did not run it through the Hispanic Congressional Caucus. The #1 impediment for any kind of reform to legal immigration, because in their view it has to be comprehensive (read Amnesty). The legal immigration system is already hostage, and no amount of nuanced policy announcements by Hillary are not going to get a bill passed because even before Republicans she will face resistance from HCC, and with Amnesty, as long as Republican majority is there, its not going anywhere.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#73

Post by dragonwriter »

sologoub wrote: post #70
jordanb wrote: post #9

> attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. HAH! I knew this was going to be in there. Of course it's a gigantic bailout to the universities. STEM grad programs are already full of foreign nationals trying to get a slot in the advanced degree H1-B track. This would absolutely turbocharge that: buy a degree from whatever fourth rate American university for $xxx,xxx and value…

For it to be a golden ticket, someone has to hire them at a good salary. If the person went to 4th rate school and has no skills to compete in the job market, it's not really a golden ticket and not a drain on the economy as they don't qualify for a lot of things. On the other hand, if the person is capable and can attract and sustain a lucrative career, they'll contribute to economy and taxes. As someone else mentio…

> H1-B was originally meant to fill in labor gaps, not reduce costs...

No, the people involved in making the decision knew enough basic economic to recognize that "filling gaps in supply for commodity X" and "reducing the market-clearing cost of commodity X" are exactly the same thing.

It was sold as the former, because to general public that sounds better.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#74

Post by defen »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #16
jordanb wrote: post #9

> attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. HAH! I knew this was going to be in there. Of course it's a gigantic bailout to the universities. STEM grad programs are already full of foreign nationals trying to get a slot in the advanced degree H1-B track. This would absolutely turbocharge that: buy a degree from whatever fourth rate American university for $xxx,xxx and value…

America has an amazing ability to attract the most high-quality immigrants, and an even more amazing ability to screw this up. Just give a green card to whomever can get a sufficiently high SAT score. This would start an insanely powerful brain drain in America's favour.

You don't think sufficiently motivated groups have figured out how to cheat on the SAT?

http://www.barrons.com/articles/sat-integrity-falls-victim-t...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/11/...

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#75

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

defen wrote: post #74
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has an amazing ability to attract the most high-quality immigrants, and an even more amazing ability to screw this up. Just give a green card to whomever can get a sufficiently high SAT score. This would start an insanely powerful brain drain in America's favour.

You don't think sufficiently motivated groups have figured out how to cheat on the SAT? http://www.barrons.com/articles/sat-integrity-falls-victim-t... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/11/...

IQ scores are very stable across time. An IQ 140 immigrant would be worth the cost of several random tests. As this would cost vastly less than a largely-useless masters degree, I'm sure immigrants would be willing to pay for a harder-to-cheat test.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#76

Post by tassl »

ak217 wrote: post #21
jordanb wrote: post #9

> attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. HAH! I knew this was going to be in there. Of course it's a gigantic bailout to the universities. STEM grad programs are already full of foreign nationals trying to get a slot in the advanced degree H1-B track. This would absolutely turbocharge that: buy a degree from whatever fourth rate American university for $xxx,xxx and value…

That is a pretty myopic thing to say. One of the biggest issues for the US higher ed system is that foreign students who receive an education here often can't stay or have to face ridiculous hurdles. In many thousands of cases, you are also wrong about buying the degree: research grants to universities fund those students' tuition and stipends, in exchange for good work. Address the inflation of university budgets at…

As somebody that has gone through the whole process (MS, PhD, OPT, H1B, Green Card), granting green cards to diplomas of is a big mistake. While the current system adds some level of stress to the worker, I have yet to find (surely there are) a valid foreigner with some STEM degree that could not stay in the US if he wanted to. This is true for most "bad" students that I know. On the other hand, some students that trick the system (most of them, in my experience [1], chinese and indian) have had trouble to stay.

The current system gives you up to 29 months in OPT after a STEM degree (if I recall correctly, 12 + 17). During that time you can work towards H1B and Green Card; while H1B is tight with a employer, you can change employers with it. Now, if the Green Card is given to any STEM diploma, you will have a mass of unprepared, unethical students applying for and obtaining diplomas they don't deserve (because obtaining a diploma is not that difficult in the US). And I do believe this will create tensions later on with nationals.

[1] This is obviously biased. My experience in the university (and outside of it) is that there are networks that facilitate entry on universities, "success" in universities [2,3], and in interviews processes in companies. I have seen exams for the previous 10 years solved with detailed explanation; homeworks and all solutions for specific books solved, etc... with this only available to specific group. I have not seen this happening with people of other countries.

[2] http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/12/asia/china-education-agencies/

[3] http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-c...

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#77

Post by MrZongle2 »

krapp wrote: post #54
MrZongle2 wrote: post #8

I realize that Clinton -- like any candidate -- has a platoon of advisers for a wide variety of topics, and it is these people (rather than the candidate) who comes up with the proposed policy. But I can't help but immediately think that this was the candidate who disregarded the sound advice of the IT and security professionals in the State Department and had an entirely different bunch of people set up a faulty alt…

>But I can't help but immediately think that this was the candidate who disregarded the sound advice of the IT and security professionals in the State Department and had an entirely different bunch of people set up a faulty alternative email service for her own convenience. As opposed to Donald Trump, who is known for his IT security savvy and who would obviously never bend or break the rules for his personal benefit…

"As opposed to Donald Trump, who is known for his IT security savvy and who would obviously never bend or break the rules for his personal benefit..."

Well 1) two wrongs don't make a right, 2) we're talking about Clinton, specifically, since the story is about her announced tech plan and 3) as far as I know, no IT-related investigations have been launched against Trump.

But besides all that....uh, good point?

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#78

Post by defen »

sigmar wrote: post #69
talmand wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect Hillary is out of her depth on the subject as well. Her advisors, on the other hand, may not. I see no reason Trump cannot hire advisors just as experienced in the field as Hillary.

>I see no reason Trump cannot hire advisors just as experienced in the field as Hillary. The "he can get experts too" argument is fine, except for the fact he has publicly spoken out saying all experts are "terrible." >Referring to criticism that he could be better schooled on matters of foreign policy, Trump suggested he would do just as well, if not better than the current or past administrations without anyone pro…

How is that different than Obama claiming he knew more about policies on any particular issue than his policy directors?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1012/81895_Page2.html

People who run for president by definition have huge egos, it's not limited to Trump.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#79

Post by MrZongle2 »

kaitai wrote: post #63
Spooky23 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do some Googling. Anyone who isn't Hillary Clinton would be in prison right now for doing what she did.

Like Colin Powell?

I agree with the parent poster: anyone.

I held a clearance for 20 years. If I (or anybody else who wasn't well-connected) had pulled this stunt, I'd be in prison right now. And I would have likely been detained in a cell until trial. This was made abundantly clear in the annual security refresher training and briefings that all cleared personnel undergo, in addition to the original ones you receive upon being cleared.

I say this not to specifically knock Clinton. Whether it was Powell, Petraeus, Clinton or any other individual: the law is unjust if not applied equally to all. There have always been people in power who have skirted the law, but it is especially galling that these days those individuals don't seem particularly concerned about hiding that fact, and their supporters can so casually excuse it.

Re: Hillary Clinton Announces Tech Plan

#80

Post by throwawaysocks »

kaitai wrote: post #61
rayiner wrote: post #2

> It proposes investments in computer science and engineering education . . . and attaching a green card to the diplomas of foreign-born students earning STEM degrees. These sound good in theory, but in effect they're an industry-specific labor subsidy. When the government "invests" in STEM education, what happens is that the companies that need to hire engineers save money both as a result of reduced training costs…

Agreed. People here are mostly thinking "brilliant computer scientist" or "will cure cancer," but many universities have degree programs that are revenue generators, requiring full tuition payments from students and attracting many foreign nationals, which may not be held to the same standards as other programs. These programs serve plenty of students from China and Saudi Arabia whose parents are making an investment…

> "brilliant computer scientist" or "will cure cancer,"

These are already covered by eb-2 anyways.

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