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Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

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Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#41

Post by jacquesm »

jstanley wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland held a referendum on stopping freedom of movement with the EU, which passed. The EU refused to even discuss it and the borders are still open and that's not going to change unless Switzerland wants to cancel all it's EU deals. Which isn't going to happen. Legally, referendums in the UK are advisory only.

> the borders are still open I'm not sure where you draw the line for this, but last time I went into Switzerland I had my passport checked at the border.

When was that? I drove through coming from Italy a few week ago exiting at the French border on the North side and nobody looked at any passports.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#42

Post by jabbernotty »

jonwachob91 wrote: post #31
jabbernotty wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the UK needs to trade with Europe, so they cannot ever really leave. Any deal done will end up looking like Switzerland Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality. I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. Going back on that would not be good for future voting or agreements. Swiss politicians did not, as far…

> I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. It was a non-binding referendum. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result... [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887 [3] http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/73775/eu-referendum-is-the-b... [4] http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/23/welcome-to-the-world-after-br...

Thank you for the correction!

I was misinformed by some of my local media that said it was binding.

"Het referendum gaat door en het is een bindend referendum." http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/19/brexit-afgewend-eu-berei...

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#43

Post by dragonwriter »

awjr wrote: post #30
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

Although I voted remain, I almost voted leave. There are good, very good reasons to leave. There are very very good reasons to remain and 'fix' from the inside. However a friend on FB unfriended me after he declared all leavers were racist idiots. I suggested we need to understand why people voted leave. I tried to point out that the rise of the far right within Europe might be down to EU policies. I think there are…

Er, the Leave campaign was expressly against free travel, and it's kind of silly to think you'd get the same trade terms leaving the EU. So the choice you provide to support the idea that maybe the leavers have it right is neither one the leavers are offering (on the travel part) nor one that is remotely realistic on either point as a result of voting leave (it's something that might have been achievable by staying in and advocating a different course for the EU.)

And you live within a representative, rather than direct, democracy which features non-binding referenda; the people speak with binding authority through elections of representatives. There may be reasons that the government should put the results of the referendum into policy, but appeals to the nature of the system of government do not provide that reason.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#44

Post by [deleted] »

jstanley wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland held a referendum on stopping freedom of movement with the EU, which passed. The EU refused to even discuss it and the borders are still open and that's not going to change unless Switzerland wants to cancel all it's EU deals. Which isn't going to happen. Legally, referendums in the UK are advisory only.

> the borders are still open I'm not sure where you draw the line for this, but last time I went into Switzerland I had my passport checked at the border.

[deleted]

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#45

Post by return0 »

Post-brexit, all the talk on both sides is about the immigration issues, the financial contribution and the future of the UK. No talk about the cultural identity of the UK or a debate about whether it is a european culture. Both brexiters and bremainers see the EU as an economic agreement only. The UK should go its own way. the anglosphere is a better fit for them. The support for bremain ranges from reluctant, to lukewarm, dispassionate and wary. We should seek people who actually believe in EU's future. I think Brexit was inevitable, although it came prematurely.

All the current brexit leaders, however, are delusional. UK needs to find better leadership to get through this.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#46

Post by basch »

IshKebab wrote: post #18
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> And it's all come out AFTER the result. The is actually a very good point. People are acting like it was all incredibly obvious that voting Leave was a terrible thing to do. But it wasn't obvious before the vote. At least not to the average voter. A lot of the blame for that has to go to the media who printed anything the Leave campaign said even if it wasn't true (the £350m thing especially). I don't think it's fa…

> But it wasn't obvious before the vote. At least not to the average voter. A lot of the blame for that has to go to the media who printed anything the Leave campaign.

Which succinctly sums up why simple democracy is a bad way to make large scale decisions. It's good it was non binding.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#47

Post by sgift »

jstanley wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland held a referendum on stopping freedom of movement with the EU, which passed. The EU refused to even discuss it and the borders are still open and that's not going to change unless Switzerland wants to cancel all it's EU deals. Which isn't going to happen. Legally, referendums in the UK are advisory only.

> the borders are still open I'm not sure where you draw the line for this, but last time I went into Switzerland I had my passport checked at the border.

That's because Switzerland isn't part of the Schengen area, not because of the referendum. The referendum was about immigration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_...

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#48

Post by Ntrails »

sonium wrote: post #29
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> I reckon leaving will send a signal about reforming the EU... I heard this frequently, but it is never specified _what_ exactly should be reformed. Also I think that most people really overestimate the EU budget: It's about 1/10th of Germany's/France's or 6 times of Luxemburg's.

Someone was saying this sort of thing recently. "Way less of the EU budget is spent on admin than people think"

I think the true number was ~8.5bn from 140bn budget (but I'm going on memory, I assume it was euros). I'm not sure that is a low budget? France and Germany are actually running a country. Infrastructure, social security, armed forces, police etc etc. This is a layer of government over and above that, redistributing and legislating for (in theory) the benefit of all.

I honestly don't see it as a small budget, and whilst the admin costs may be 5% instead of 20% (which I seem to have as the median expected number in the survey) - it's still billions.

It's all a question of perspective.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#50

Post by dmca »

jstanley wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland held a referendum on stopping freedom of movement with the EU, which passed. The EU refused to even discuss it and the borders are still open and that's not going to change unless Switzerland wants to cancel all it's EU deals. Which isn't going to happen. Legally, referendums in the UK are advisory only.

> the borders are still open I'm not sure where you draw the line for this, but last time I went into Switzerland I had my passport checked at the border.

As you do coming in to the UK. Having your passport checked is not the same as having closed borders, EU citizens are still being allowed in.
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