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Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

bbc.com

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Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#21

Post by hardlianotion »

airesQ wrote: post #6

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lords. Saying that the EU in undemocratic is just a meme. Then there is the question about the UK contributions. The UK does get its money worth, by the profit made trading in one of the biggest markets in the world (and with the countries that have trade deals…

"EU structures are much more democratic than the EU."

This is also simply a meme, and normally quoted in knee-jerk reflex to an utterance of the other.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#22

Post by Brakenshire »

People are critical of the flagrant dishonesty of the Leave campaign, the way that all concerns were dismissed with the 'Project Fear' or 'the British public has had enough of experts' thought terminating cliches, and now the refusal to admit that the public have been lied to, and the new tendency to blame Remain voters and the EU for 'talking down the economy', or for requiring now what everyone knew would be the case beforehand in our trading/diplomatic/legal relationship post Brexit. And also the naked self-absorption of Leave campaigners like Boris Johnson, who made a series of completely unworkable promises and now doesn't even bother to turn up to parliament to discuss them.

Britain paid £270m a week, and received back £100m. Johnson invented a £350m figure, the entirety of which he promised to the health service, and then promised the £100m spending commitments would be met. So his new spending requirements are £450m a week, and the money saved £270m. In other words, he has pretended to magic £180m a week out of thin air.

He has also effectively promised major restrictions of immigration alongside access to the single market, which everyone knew was impossible, and promised there won't be a recession, which is unlikely. He gambled the country's stability for his personal advancement, and his duplicity and incompetence will probably lead to a far right party becoming a major force in British politics.

It is not surprising that people are angry.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#23

Post by elthran »

switch007 wrote: post #10
ZenoArrow wrote: post #3

I'm starting to think that the book Manufacturing Consent should be part of our school curriculum. I'd suggest seeing through media spin is a very useful life skill. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

The corrupt have already got their hands on education - 40% of schools are acadamies. I don't see Noam Chomsky being included in the curriculum, ever!

Are you really trying to say that all academies are corrupt? I fail to see how not being controlled by a LEA means that you are straight away in the hands of corrupt big business/the man/the illuminati/whoever you think these corrupt people are.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#24

Post by rkangel »

Brakenshire wrote: post #22

People are critical of the flagrant dishonesty of the Leave campaign, the way that all concerns were dismissed with the 'Project Fear' or 'the British public has had enough of experts' thought terminating cliches, and now the refusal to admit that the public have been lied to, and the new tendency to blame Remain voters and the EU for 'talking down the economy', or for requiring now what everyone knew would be the ca…

While you're probably right that the 'Leave' campaign is probably winning on the dishonesty front, there was a fairly sizeable departure from reality on both sides.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#25

Post by lordnacho »

jabbernotty wrote: post #16
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> the UK needs to trade with Europe, so they cannot ever really leave. Any deal done will end up looking like Switzerland Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality. I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. Going back on that would not be good for future voting or agreements. Swiss politicians did not, as far…

> Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality.

No, not at all. Things could turn out very differently, it's true. But I lean towards thinking that the countries involved will want to continue trading with each other and basically not rock the economic boat too much.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#26

Post by ordbajsare »

switch007 wrote: post #10
ZenoArrow wrote: post #3

I'm starting to think that the book Manufacturing Consent should be part of our school curriculum. I'd suggest seeing through media spin is a very useful life skill. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

The corrupt have already got their hands on education - 40% of schools are acadamies. I don't see Noam Chomsky being included in the curriculum, ever!

>I don't see Noam Chomsky being included in the curriculum, ever!

Good since he is an dirty communist.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#27

Post by throwaway987611 »

airesQ wrote: post #6

Leave says that the EU in undemocratic. But the EU is a democracy. It is certainly much more democratic than the British first-past-the-post and the house of Lords. Saying that the EU in undemocratic is just a meme. Then there is the question about the UK contributions. The UK does get its money worth, by the profit made trading in one of the biggest markets in the world (and with the countries that have trade deals…

> The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

I beg to differ.

The Eurocrats in Brussels who are unelected. Wanted Britian out immediately after the result.

Merkel, on the other hand. Had the Car manufacturers on the phone screaming at her about the result. For them, the UK is 25% of their export market. I am sure other German manufacturers are not too happy with the result either.

The UK is simply in a better position than the EU. Now more than ever.

Think about all those directives the EU placed on the UK. Now they can be all changed.

Think about agriculture, fishing, energy, etc. Everything that HAD to be negotiated as an EU entity. That only things could have been pushed through the EU parliment is if all EU states agreed. That no other country had been penalised!

Now, British interests come first. If the UK wants to do something and France or another country doesn't like it. Now it's tough luck.

Now many times has France Veto'd something that Britian wanted before, because her interests were marginalised or a sector under threat?

This is what people simply just don't understand.

Once all the smoke clears. Britian has a real chance to be more competitive than France or Germany and that scares the hell out of them!

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#28

Post by jstanley »

simonh wrote: post #19
jabbernotty wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the UK needs to trade with Europe, so they cannot ever really leave. Any deal done will end up looking like Switzerland Thse statements are seemingly facts to you, but personally I am not sure how either could become reality. I believe that the UK will have to leave, because the referendum is said to be binding. Going back on that would not be good for future voting or agreements. Swiss politicians did not, as far…

Switzerland held a referendum on stopping freedom of movement with the EU, which passed. The EU refused to even discuss it and the borders are still open and that's not going to change unless Switzerland wants to cancel all it's EU deals. Which isn't going to happen. Legally, referendums in the UK are advisory only.

> the borders are still open

I'm not sure where you draw the line for this, but last time I went into Switzerland I had my passport checked at the border.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#29

Post by sonium »

lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

> I reckon leaving will send a signal about reforming the EU...

I heard this frequently, but it is never specified _what_ exactly should be reformed. Also I think that most people really overestimate the EU budget: It's about 1/10th of Germany's/France's or 6 times of Luxemburg's.

Re: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds?

#30

Post by awjr »

lordnacho wrote: post #7

I can say the vitriol after the result has been crazy. My FB has dozens and dozens of posts from Remoaners decrying the idiots, racists, and old people who dared to vote against their righteous interest. At least there's a bit of humour now that England have been booted out of the European Championship. And it's all come out AFTER the result. Before the result, I suppose people thought it would go to Remain, but also…

Although I voted remain, I almost voted leave. There are good, very good reasons to leave. There are very very good reasons to remain and 'fix' from the inside.

However a friend on FB unfriended me after he declared all leavers were racist idiots. I suggested we need to understand why people voted leave. I tried to point out that the rise of the far right within Europe might be down to EU policies.

I think there are some big issues within Europe as described by Tony Benn https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=f0wFii8klNg

Of interest there are rumours that the EU is to announce a superstate http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-...

So maybe, just maybe, the leavers have it right. Do we want to be living in the Unites States of EU or do we want countries that identify as European and trade and travel equally between them all?

We live within a democracy and the public have spoken. Our politicians should execute the will of the people.

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