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Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

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Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#61

Post by amazing_jose »

abalone wrote: post #54
jbooth wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, that's a bullshit point of view. For the japanese military in WWII, rape was normal. Butchering civilian populations wholesale was normal. The Americans and British did not play by those rules, even though we did a lot of killing. This was not two equivalent evils. http://foxtalk.tistory.com/98

That doesn't refute the claim that the allies had a "take no prisoners" policy, killing wounded or surrendering enemy. It's plausible that that got reworked into the more palatable "they all died by choice" meme. Does anyone have sources, either way? Also, regarding "butchering civilian populations wholesale" see [1], [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a... [2] https://en.wikipedia.or…

I think you will find a few comments in this Quora thread can explain the "take no prisoners" policy. Basically the Japanese were using perfidy as a normal war tactic (perfidy is a war crime, surrender and then, when your enemy's guard is lower, attack).

To me there's not greatest lack of honour than committing perfidy in war.

[1] https://www.quora.com/Is-false-surrendering-a-war-crime

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#62

Post by akeruu »

Apocryphon wrote: post #22
iwontreddit wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Japanese soldiers' "fighting to the death" nonsense was myth invented many years after WW2 by allied "historians" to justify the mass murder of japanese soldiers by the allies. It's not that the japanese weren't willing to surrender. It was that the allies ( unfortunately out…

Who was responsible for the mass suicides in the Battle of Okinawa?

This has been subjected to revisionism multiple times.

After public protest and court ruling, it is now admitted it was the Japanese army which ordered people to kill themselves and even killed them:

"Orders from Japanese soldiers led to Okinawans committing group suicide," and, "The [Japanese] army caused many tragedies in Okinawa, killing local civilians and forcing them to commit mass suicide." [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#MEXT_controv...

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#63

Post by SonOfLilit »

germinalphrase wrote: post #34
Kostchei wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done some form of boxing, grappling /judo or martial art for 30 years. I taught physical skills- use of force, to law enforcement for 6 years. For 5 years I worked in a violent custodial environment. Some young people entering that work-place had never faced an angry man, never been in a real fight. For them that "martial arts" environment is a reasonably safe and accessible place to start. I agree that it is no…

What you would recommend as a more practical form of self defense training for those not working in a high-risk environment?

Ninjutsu is the hackers' martial art - it's full of clever exploits of the body based on a very good understanding of the physics involved. It emphasizes practicing real fighting situations.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#64

Post by bbotond »

jbooth wrote: post #11
danso wrote: post #2

If the concept of Bushido didn't become popular until Japan's modernization (at the end of the 19th century)...how much of Japan's conduct in WW2 (notably, the fighting until death) can be attributed/blamed to this misinterpretation of samurai history? Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Kamikaze [1], I was surprised to read that the concept of suicide attacks only became formalized late in the war (June 1944), rather…

If you're talking about Japanese conduct during the war, I'd find the rampant war crimes a lot more notable than the fighting until death.

Can someone knowledgeable about Japanese culture explain why those war crimes were so common?

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#65

Post by Tharkun »

titanix2 wrote: post #29

I recently (3 months) started iaidô[1] in my Japanese university club, and one thing that struck me was how few "bullshit" talks we had about the discipline. In contrast, when browsing for clubs in my country, each website was filled with a last a few paragraphs saying how spiritual the art is, how it is all about discovering yourself and the truth of the universe. People of my club are more interested in it because…

Like many other things worth doing, iaido is best experienced by doing it. Talking about it will get you nowhere. Get your sword out and start training until you wear yourself out.

The people in your club who are there because katanas are cool will all quit within the next 3 years. Some may last 5. None will last 60 unless they get over the coolness factor and see it for what it is.

That being said, iaido is great. It's a good physical and mental workout. It'll teach you a lot about yourself, a bit like meditating but with sword in hand. There will be endless repetition in a search for unattainable perfection. It certainly can be 'spiritual' in a sense.

Source: over 2 decades of martial arts and nearly 2 decades of iaido.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#66

Post by lunchTime42 »

Medieval War Principals meet modern weapons. People charged in with horses and protective amuletts at verdun. But where butchering a village was hard work in medieval times, modern weapons make it the flick of a switch. Add to that a culture where non-fullfillment of expectations is a huge shame and extererior pressure upholds all the norms, and you get japans behaviour during the ww2.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#67

Post by berntb »

bbotond wrote: post #64
jbooth wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about Japanese conduct during the war, I'd find the rampant war crimes a lot more notable than the fighting until death.

Can someone knowledgeable about Japanese culture explain why those war crimes were so common?

Was Japanese war crimes really worse than the European standards in pre modern times?

From my Swedish history, see the 30 year war (for a viewpoint not covered well in Swedish schools, google Polish deluge). To me it seems the main difference is that Sweden didn't have the same technological resources a few centuries earlier...

Edit: The obvious point is -- does present Swedish culture explain why historical atrocities were so common...?

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#68

Post by Tharkun »

hoodoof wrote: post #4

Related but at a tangent - after a lifetime of interest in karate I came to realise that most of the stuff taught at karate is not practical. Katas and karate punches and kicks - most of this better thought of more as dancing or ceremonial. A bit like Tai Chi - except that Tai Chi claims no real world martial value. The myth remains however of karate being great self defence training. Our local karate club is packed…

What you see as pointless is in fact good conditioning of the mind and body, something that reduces anxiety in the parents and boosts confidence in the kids. Anyone who learns a martial art with the intention of getting into fights, well, is an idiot.

You need to take a long view of the martial arts, instead of a short one. Two years of practice won't teach you jack shit. A lifetime of it can be very fulfulling.

Many people have difficulty seeing the benefits in kata training, but it really is one of the best ways to learn to apply techniques correctly.

As for practicality, what does that even mean? Do you frequently need to punch people in the teeth?

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#69

Post by titanix2 »

cyberferret wrote: post #57
titanix2 wrote: post #29

I recently (3 months) started iaidô[1] in my Japanese university club, and one thing that struck me was how few "bullshit" talks we had about the discipline. In contrast, when browsing for clubs in my country, each website was filled with a last a few paragraphs saying how spiritual the art is, how it is all about discovering yourself and the truth of the universe. People of my club are more interested in it because…

I just starting Kendo training here at a local dojo. Our instructor is very adamant and clear at almost all training sessions that the skills we are learning with the bamboo and wooden swords are NOT usable in a self defence or martial capacity at all. Rather that our studies are for mental focus, fitness and spiritual calmness. These are the exact reasons I took up the study of this art. In my younger days, I studie…

I wonder how much the unusability is actually related to weapon carry right. I mean, of course sword skill is useless for defence if you cannot carry a sword with you. If it were otherwise, like in pre-Meiji Japan, I'm sure kendô skill would be better than nothing. But given that by the time warriors were taught real military fighting and not martial art in the modern meaning, the question is a non starter. So I agree with you and your teacher.

Interestingly enough, from the 6 different clubs (aikidô, karate, iaidô, nippon kenpô, shaolin temple box, sumô) that were demonstrating their art at some event, the most effective or useful one seemed to be... sumô and nippon kenpô. The sumô dudes were very strong and had serious skill for putting done someone on the ground. The boxer kicks were pretty serious too. On the other side, the way people falled on aikidô kata seemed pretty fake, not to mention the karate dudes fighting thin air.

Re: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit

#70

Post by titanix2 »

Tharkun wrote: post #65
titanix2 wrote: post #29

I recently (3 months) started iaidô[1] in my Japanese university club, and one thing that struck me was how few "bullshit" talks we had about the discipline. In contrast, when browsing for clubs in my country, each website was filled with a last a few paragraphs saying how spiritual the art is, how it is all about discovering yourself and the truth of the universe. People of my club are more interested in it because…

Like many other things worth doing, iaido is best experienced by doing it. Talking about it will get you nowhere. Get your sword out and start training until you wear yourself out. The people in your club who are there because katanas are cool will all quit within the next 3 years. Some may last 5. None will last 60 unless they get over the coolness factor and see it for what it is. That being said, iaido is great. I…

Japanese university clubs are pretty intense, 3 sessions per week for first grader, up to 5 for the more advanced member.

But given how much 1 and 2nd year and how few 3rd year and upper there is, you seems totally right on your point. Actually I was wondering why there was so few of them, but I guess the cultural background also plays a lot; 4th year mostly focus on searching a job and not a lot of student do a master degree.

And sure it have the beneficial effects you point (I started it partly to correct my posture), but I think putting too much emphasis on the spiritual side is a kind of Orientalism bias.

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