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Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

extremetech.com

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Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this: it's none of their business what people choose to do with their computers. It's not their ecosystem.

I disagree. Outdated and thus soon malware-ridden systems are a threat to all systems connected directly or indirectly to them, so users are obliged either to keep their systems clean and up-to-date. Either themselves or through experts, or through automated servicing. Much like how cars must be serviced in regular intervals if they are to be operated on shared infrastructure (roads).

Well, that's a reasonable point of view, but it's not Microsoft's job to make it happen. I could see a reasonable case for the idea that people should be held liable for hosting malware on their computers, and that failing to patch security holes could have some kind of secondary liability consequences. If that were the law, it might well make sense for Microsoft to offer upgrade contracts as a form of insurance. Refusing to accept an upgrade would then reasonably terminate the insurance agreement, and it would now be your job to keep your machine safe. Most people wouldn't be up for that and would probably opt to upgrade instead.

But that is not the world we live in, and those are not the rules in play, and even if they were, forcibly updating people's machines against their wishes would not be the solution.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota doesn't get to come to your house and tow your Corolla away when they think you ought to move on. You get to decide that: it's your car, and it's your choice. If Toyota feels so embarrassed by the fact that you are driving your Corolla that they want to spend some money trying to convince you to replace it, they can certainly make you a trade-in offer. But maybe you like your Corolla, or you don't feel like de…

There's actually precedent for that in the world of cars. The GM EV1 was leased out and later 100% recalled and destroyed. Under the license agreement with GM, they did have the ability to take away your car, much for the same reason Microsoft pushes OS upgrades: their inability or unwillingness to support the platform any further. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#Program_can... At some point Microsof…

Sure, if I've leased the car from Toyota, maybe the terms of the lease obligate me to bring it in for service, and allow them to replace its carburetor with a fuel injector, fit it out with ABS, or whatever else. Depends on the lease, I suppose. Who owns the car, in this case? Not me, clearly.

I'm not arguing that Microsoft should be selling 1992 Corollas retrofitted with 2016-tech-level features; I'm arguing that it's the owner of the '92 Corolla who gets to decide whether, when, and how it should be upgraded or replaced. Toyota doesn't get to make that choice just because they manufactured the car; the owner of the car gets to make that choice. That's what ownership means.

If I own the computer, I get to decide what software I'm going to install on it, and that means I get to decide whether, when, and how to update it. Neither Microsoft nor any other OS maker gets to make that decision, because they do not own the computer in question.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about a computer that runs a specific piece of software (say, Mach3 for CNC control) that doesn't have a win10 alternative. It only runs in windows 7 32 bit. There is no good alternative. I would prefer to make the determination that the machine will NEVER update. I just need it to remain the same until mach 3 updates or an alternative comes along.

Then disconnect it from the internet, and disable automatic updates... easy, peasy. edit: regarding downvotes... if the software versioning is mission critical for a system, then having automatic updates and being connected to an external network is a risk to that critical system. I wasn't trying to be pedantic, but was being perhaps more terse than some may appreciate.

>Then disconnect it from the internet

this is not a solution to a problem. it's incredibly reductive and close-minded.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about if that 16GB gets used up while the install is in progress?

I think one of the 70,000 Microsoft employees just might have thought of that possibility before pushing the update.

One would think so, but then one would also think that nobody would ever design a boot recovery procedure such that it has an error case where it deletes all (several hundreds) executable files on the disk, completely hosing the system. But Microsoft still managed to do the latter. It's likely not that nobody thought about it, but maybe not the right person, and in big companies that can matter a lot.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#385
post #173

Microsoft's dishonest and manipulative tricks to force Windows 10 upgrades are terrible for regular users or people who just aren't ready to make the jump. I have a non-techie friend who works in a veterinary clinic who recently texted me that the computers in her office had gone down after being forcibly upgraded to Windows 10. No computers meant having a hell of a time looking up records for the dogs and what medic…

I can't believe this is still how they operate. How has the company that shipped Windows Vista not figured it out yet?

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#386

A few days ago I was visiting family, and my Mom was online Skyping relatives on her Windows 7 PC. She comes running into the other room and says her PC just restarted while she was talking, and now it says something about configuring Windows 10, even though she was always careful to opt-out of the constant requests to upgrade. So, we had to wait for it to install the OS, then decline the terms of service, then wait…

>she was always careful to opt-out of the constant requests to upgrade. Why? Why would you NOT want to upgrade? I get that restarting in the middle of a skype call is shitty and ridiculous, but it has been a year now.

Because the upgrades add technical debt without removing many of the problems of the previous systems.

My non-tech relatives all agree that windows 2000, vista, and 7 are all the same. Why make them move to something else the same? Security - what is that, when this was working fine before? ME was a disaster we would all like to forget - where do you expect their confidence to come from, in win10, when the past hasn't inspired any?

Edit:

>Why would you not want to upgrade?

Because they have been burned before.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I could keep fixing my 92 Toyota Corolla to keep it on the road, but at some point it becomes more effective to just move on. There are some things inherent in older software that go beyond a simple patch, design decisions that may have made sense at the time but don't today. The only real way to go about that is how Apple does it, releasing a huge service pack that makes pretty major changes to the OS. And at th…

Toyota doesn't get to come to your house and tow your Corolla away when they think you ought to move on. You get to decide that: it's your car, and it's your choice. If Toyota feels so embarrassed by the fact that you are driving your Corolla that they want to spend some money trying to convince you to replace it, they can certainly make you a trade-in offer. But maybe you like your Corolla, or you don't feel like de…

> Toyota doesn't get to come to your house and tow your Corolla away when they think you ought to move on. You get to decide that: it's your car, and it's your choice.

Depends on where you live. In Germany TÜV has to regularly check your car for complying with street regulations, and if it doesn't pass, you don't get to drive it.

The only way to keep it is to keep it of the roads, and there's a nice :caranalogy: to keeping your insecure-via-age OS by keeping it offline.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upgrading software isn't (or shouldn't be) planned obsolescence. There's nothing inherent about software that means throwing away hardware. The only reason a Windows 7 machine wouldn't be able to run Windows 10 is if the hardware maker chose to not update their drivers, and at some point you have to stop blaming Microsoft for that. There is no such thing as planned obsolescence when it comes to software. "Throwing aw…

How about 100% everything instead of "basically anything", without serious "if's" like "as long as drivers are compatible" ? If a machine is running, say, windows xp, and it does in a manner that satisfies the owner's need, then it should be able to keep running forever in the same manner, provided that hardware lasts and/or is replaced with adequate spares, not necessarily anything newer. It's ok if that computer be…

That's exactly how it exists. What you're describing here is reality. If you have a machine running Windows XP and you never change anything, then nothing will change. Software doesn't magically bloat over time, those changes happen with updates that add new features. If you never update things, you'll stay on the same software revision and it will run the same as the day you bought it.

A company I used to work for in 2012 had a Windows 3.11 workstation running some ancient software to support an auxiliary system. Many banks run COBOL on mainframes and haven't changed anything since the 70s.

I'm really confused as to the argument here. If you never update your software and don't expect to browse the Internet, old software works exactly like it did in the past. How do you expect it would change?

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#389
Aaaaand, here come the shills.

Good job, Microsoft. Everyone who works on the Windows team should be proud. You've built something that you literally can't give away for free without force-feeding it to users, and that can be defended only by downmodding those who object.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#390
Pick the world you want to live in and go build it. Opt-in: free but chaotic and insecure. Opt-out: more uniform, but imperfect and still messy. Forced updates: it works but in the same way tyranny does.

I'm ok with security updates being on by default (and truly important ones being more forceful), but the harder you push the more freedom you take away. Do you want to live in a world where someone takes your choice away because they think they know better?

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