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10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

dangelo.quora.com

21–30 of 149 posts

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#21
post #13

Isn't any vesting for non-founding employees completely broken? If the employee loses the stock when he's fired early, then the company has a huge incentive in firing him a day before he vests, and thus he should regard the vesting compensation as nonexistent. If the employee retains the stock when he's fired early, then he can just get himself fired to ignore the vesting period, making the vesting pointless. It seem…

It isn't about the vesting periods, it is about the exercise period. Vesting periods are fine in most cases.

The exercise period is usually 90 days, if you leave a company.

What happens a lot is there is no liquidation event for years meaning that an employee with shares needs to make a decision fast to convert or lose their shares (which they earned) and that cost $$$. I've seen time and time again, where people get locked in because they need to drop 4-6 figures to exercise their shares.

> If the employee loses the stock when he's fired early, then the company has a huge incentive in firing him a day before he vests, and thus he should regard the vesting compensation as nonexistent.

I've seen this happen a few times in SV where employees are fired 1-2 weeks before their vesting period. Sad when it happens. Not saying that all times it is because of the cliff, but people talk and are aware of companies that have done this.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#23
post #13

Isn't any vesting for non-founding employees completely broken? If the employee loses the stock when he's fired early, then the company has a huge incentive in firing him a day before he vests, and thus he should regard the vesting compensation as nonexistent. If the employee retains the stock when he's fired early, then he can just get himself fired to ignore the vesting period, making the vesting pointless. It seem…

Only assuming that the benefit gained from firing the employee the day before they vest outweighs the cost of bringing on a new employee.

Which probably comes down to the position.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#24
post #4

I followed this link expecting to see a comment about some sort of "encoding" of the human body relating to long-but-not-indefinite period of physical exercise. Instead it's about stock options. As the article offered no background, I'm lost as to what is being discussed. In the last 20 years I've never had the same employer for 10 years, so can someone ELI5 what is being discussed? Thanks in advance!

Personally, I was hoping it was an article giving me an excuse to pursue 10 years of intense exercise and outdoor adventure.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#25
post #3

Wow I guess since employees should already value most stock options at near zero it's hard to value them any less.

I think a 10 year exercise window makes them much more valuable. Now instead of being faced with a decision of whether or not to spend thousands of dollars when leaving a company that I'll very likely never see again I can now defer that decision. Right now my options are to not exercise and risk kicking myself in the future if the company makes it, or exercising knowing that I'm very likely throwing my money away.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#26
post #2

I agree with Adam's post and intensely disagree with A16Z's post on this topic. I don't think companies should take back stock compensation on a technicality. It'd be silly to even discuss taking back cash compensation when someone leaves a company! I appreciate Adam starting this trend years ago.

What's your opinion on how an employee should deal with a founder who clearly believes more in the A16Z stance on stock options more than the Adam's? Apart from obvious knee-jerk reactions like "stop working there." Obviously it's in the founder's financial best interest (at least on the very surface level) for employees to not have the option to leave the company with shares at all. It is just lost money, from their…

Encourage your qualified friends to apply for jobs at the company, get through to the offer stage, then decline the offer for that reason.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#27
post #4

I followed this link expecting to see a comment about some sort of "encoding" of the human body relating to long-but-not-indefinite period of physical exercise. Instead it's about stock options. As the article offered no background, I'm lost as to what is being discussed. In the last 20 years I've never had the same employer for 10 years, so can someone ELI5 what is being discussed? Thanks in advance!

Same here. I read that as physical exercise.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#28
post #13

Isn't any vesting for non-founding employees completely broken? If the employee loses the stock when he's fired early, then the company has a huge incentive in firing him a day before he vests, and thus he should regard the vesting compensation as nonexistent. If the employee retains the stock when he's fired early, then he can just get himself fired to ignore the vesting period, making the vesting pointless. It seem…

Firings in ways that reduce the options available to the fired employee are actually quite common practice. They just don't reduce it this much, which would have a lot of the obnoxious MBA types who take over middle-aged companies licking their chops.

My spouse worked 13 years at what was a startup-with-traction when she started there. Last year, they were bought out (public-to-private by a hedge fund). A week later, she was sent packing, along with a lot of the "old-timers". That's not even getting out of options (although there was some of that). That's a simple purge. Purges happen.

When you ask employees to commit to ten years to get anything equity-wise, you're exposing them to tremendous risk. You're hampering their careers. You're exposing them to the risk that you'll take a down round three years down the road and their options will get diluted into near-worthlessness. You're exposing them to the risk that your business will be wiped out by a competitor, or put on the road to obsolescence by technical advances and market trends.

For a 50% bump? Screw that.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#29
Thank you for this Adam, as an early-stage startup guy who still hasn't made his FU money, this really nails all the salient points for me. Scott Kupor tries to decorate his article with references to employees' interests and considerations, but it's clear the guy has spent his career on the on the management/finance side where he doesn't really understand what it means to be a ground-level early-stage contributor to a young startup. Consider Kupor's "solution":

> But, a way to truly compete for the very best and long-term oriented employees would be to offer even greater amounts of employee options grants. For example, why not offer stock option grants that are 50% more than the nearest competitor’s — but with the provision that a departing employee cannot exercise his or her stock options unless there has been a liquidity event? If you stay, you’re a serious owner, but if you don’t want to be part of the company for any reason you won’t be an owner. This solves all of the issues: cash rich vs. poor; competitive offers; and the bad incentive problem (e.g., encouraging employees to quit to build their own diversified stock portfolios).

I don't even know where to begin with this. First of all, unless you are a VC, you don't have visibility into the market for options. Even if you did, startups are not commodities, you can't compare shares of early stage companies directly to each, particularly when you are a single-digit employee, you are going to be shaping the actual future of the company. Not only should the offer you receive reflect the value that your particular skills and expertise will bring the company, but you also have to gauge the potential of the company itself. 1% of a $1B company is worth a lot more than 2% of a $100M company, and of course how much funding will you need to get there?

Obviously these things aren't predictable, but as a prospective employee you have to try. After all, unlike investing, you only have one working lifetime to spend as employee. That puts a different perspective on these things from the VC really is building a portfolio and playing the odds. Since the VC is not directly pulling the levers, startups are effectively fungible to them.

But the part that really burns me up about his "solution" and it's purported comprehensiveness, is the idea that early stage employees who leave before a liquidity event don't deserve any equity at all. I'm sorry Scott, but that is absolute horse shit, and frankly it really will make me think twice about taking any investment from A16Z in the future. The early stage employees who take a huge pay cut in order to build something from scratch which will most likely fail completely, are making a huge investment in the company. They will literally pave the way for all the later employees to even have a company to work for.

Can you imagine if VCs made the analogous argument that angel investors should not be entitled to their returns unless they matched the later VC investments? "That would be preposterous! Obviously those angels took a big financial risk and deserve their returns!" Financiers would never be this short-sighted, but somehow Scott thinks that someone putting their blood, sweat and tears into startup for a below-market salary are only as valuable as their latest month of work. I respect the role of capital in startup creation, I really respect it because I don't have it, but even so, money is nothing without execution, and A16Z would be nothing without talented founders and employees who are willing to sacrifice a lot more than them to bring a successful company into this world.

Even if you are a complete sociopath who is interested solely in the short-term benefits to the company, you still wouldn't want to take this tack because (as Adam very aptly pointed out) then you end up with a lot of dead-weight in the company that's just hanging around to cash in their options.

Startups are not fungible, employees are not fungible. Treating employees like humans is not only the right thing to do, it's how you cultivate reputation with "cash-poor" top performers. The danger for VCs like Scott Kupor is there will always be an army of sycophants and yes-men ready to consecrate his every word just to get a piece of that juicy VC fund, but they are in real danger of having their lunch eaten by the expanding reach of angels that actually worked their way up out of the trenches themselves and understand the tech employee mindset.

Re: 10-Year Exercise Periods Make Sense

#30
post #14

I agree with this, but what do you guys think about minimum service periods? Like requiring 2 or 3 years? Companies like Pinterest and Coinbase have added that condition.[1] Greater portability could in theory lead to higher turnover even among happy employees. They might go on to found their own company sooner. They might see good financial sense in diversifying their options portfolio. Yet young companies need the…

> "minimum service periods"

Is this different from a cliff?

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