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Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

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Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#41

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization. But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with mo…

Is housing any cheaper in Dublin?

Much cheaper. Dublin has a housing crisis (and housing is still far more expensive than Berlin, say), but it's not London levels of absurd. Yet.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#43
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The house-pricing problem is not due to startups (although this has put pressure on/gentrified a few small areas). The startup scene is a very small part of London as a whole. It is the combination of under-investment in new housing, building the wrong types of new housing (vast luxury flats instead of smaller, affordable units), and selling large amounts of it to foreign buyers as investments (often left unoccupied)…

Oh, you're right, startups aren't the main cause of the problem, but anything that moves out of London will help a bit, and it would certainly be good if people who want to create or work in startups had better options.

Yeah, the extent to which the banking sector leaves might make an impact, but the collapse of sterling is probably going to drive more investment into London property, not less.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#44
post #17

This was shared earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11983154 > I'll repeat the comment I gave there: >I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low. >With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned. >There's cer…

I don't understand your points about wages being too low in Berlin. If low wages are a problem for a start-up, what is keeping it from offering high wages, even in Berlin? On the other hand, I could imagine that start-ups would rather keep costs low, especially in the beginning. Then it would be a problem to be situated in a city like Zurich.

Investors may choose to invest with a company in a certain city, like Nashville or Berlin or Singapore, because wages are low. So if wages become a problem for the company, the investors stop being interested. There won't be money available to raise wages (for that, the investors will just go back to markets like NYC, Boston, or SF that they trust more).

So from birth, companies based in these areas are predicated on the idea that wages must be low -- that's what makes them attractive to investors -- and as a result they really are not recruiting good people.

The whole thing basically amplifies the casino effects in start-ups. You invest in Berlin/Nashville/Singapore start-ups because it's an insanely cheap scratch-off ticket that costs you mostly nothing, has very low chance of striking it big, but offers you entertainment, or bragging rights, or something else, as an investor.

Companies in these areas will not be in a position to raise their wages to a truly competitive level for very long periods of time (most won't live that long anyway). So by agreeing to work for them, you are simply resigning yourself to a permanent reduction in real wage (i.e. after accounting for cost of living). Not to mention, for international workers anyway, adding visa risk, tax complications, equity complications, etc.

For a very talented developer who can earn far enough about market salaries even in NYC or SF so as to live a comfortable life in those places, it would only make sense to bear all these risks and join a firm in Berlin if you were being paid a premium -- i.e. that your wage in Berlin was even higher above cost of living than what your ~ $180k salary would be in Brooklyn -- and you should not at all consider it if someone starts conning you with arguments like, "but it's so much cheaper in Berlin ... and you can drink beer in the park and watch Bayern or Dortmund play here twice a year, go to Berghain on the weekends, etc. etc." (unless, of course, your utility function responds more to beer and soccer than to money).

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#45
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point the article is trying to make wrt immigration is that when the UK leaves the EU, it will also leave the free movement of workers zone, making it harder to attract immigrants, regardless of how London feels about them.

Immigration system for skilled workers is not going to change. If the UK actually does leave the EU, they'll replace EU rules of skilled immigration with something similar. The UK is a knowledge economy, it will always be open to skilled immigrants. Yet people actually believe that the UK will close down all immigration. It's absurd.

> If the UK actually does leave the EU, they'll replace EU rules of skilled immigration with something similar.

Do you understand how EU freedom of movement works? As an EU citizen I can get on a plane tomorrow, and go to any other EU country, and work there. Skills or no skills. And if I'm not happy with my job there I can quit and get another without fear of being deported. And so on...

A points-based system would be a very different proposition. There'd be far more bureaucracy involved in getting in in the first place, and then once you're in there'd potentially be issues with changing job, and with long-term residence, and with medical care, and with this, that and the other.

There is no possible way in which shutting down free movement wouldn't make the UK a less attractive destination. Of course, this is irrelevant; the UK will almost certainly have to accept free movement as part of its future EEA or EFTA member status.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#46
post #42

The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America?

> The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America?

Wouldn't that mean that Europe has a fairly strong, by global terms, actual performance in startups, despite European popular culture mostly ignoring startups?

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#47
post #17

This was shared earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11983154 > I'll repeat the comment I gave there: >I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low. >With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned. >There's cer…

I'd love to see the tech landscape in Zürich grow but there are a few problems:

- Sponsoring non-EU immigrants has become extremely difficult in Swizterland.

- Google trounces the competition by a margin that is completely out of reach for European start-ups.

- Switzerland itself is a very small market. The cash-flow of your typical SaaS start-up is going to be mostly in € or $ with all the associated burdens and risks.

Also it's funny you mention Amsterdam since from what I've seen, wages are even lower than in Berlin, which is insane given the higher CoL.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#48
post #42

The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America?

> The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America? Wouldn't that mean that Europe has a fairly strong, by global terms, actual performance in startups, despite European popular culture mostly ignoring startups?

The American national soccer team got crushed in Copa America so they are pretty far from strong.

Re: Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

#50
post #17

This was shared earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11983154 > I'll repeat the comment I gave there: >I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low. >With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned. >There's cer…

I'd love to see the tech landscape in Zürich grow but there are a few problems: - Sponsoring non-EU immigrants has become extremely difficult in Swizterland. - Google trounces the competition by a margin that is completely out of reach for European start-ups. - Switzerland itself is a very small market. The cash-flow of your typical SaaS start-up is going to be mostly in € or $ with all the associated burdens and ris…

The Swiss tax system also cripples startups in Zürich
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