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US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

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Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#81

Post by e40 »

ipsin wrote: post #73

This is disturbing despite it being "optional", because it's a place for border agents to push in the entry interview. "I noticed you didn't fill out the question regarding online identity. Do you have an online identity?" Sure, you can (and should) tell the agent that's all personal information, but that may also lead to further hassles and delays.

Just like you can opt out of the body scan, which induces them to yell, in front of everyone, "OPT OUT!" and then you get to stand in a little roped off area and wait for a while. So, I agree, they'll make it as painful as possible to decline.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#82

Post by buro9 »

ipsin wrote: post #73

This is disturbing despite it being "optional", because it's a place for border agents to push in the entry interview. "I noticed you didn't fill out the question regarding online identity. Do you have an online identity?" Sure, you can (and should) tell the agent that's all personal information, but that may also lead to further hassles and delays.

You also shouldn't say that you don't, if you have... as this would be "fraud to gain access to the USA" which is a good way to never gain access to the USA.

Therein lies a problem, just what is a social media account?

Is it Facebook and Twitter? Or does it extend to networks like LinkedIn? Or forums like Hacker News?

Do you have a Facebook account, if you believe that it has been deleted but you also suspect that technically Facebook never deletes?

Is using a dating site a social media account given that you can converse on it, swap images, etc? No? Define how Tinder or Grindr differs from Snapchat or Yik Yak... and how you'd justify the difference to US Customs.

Basically... it looks to me like either:

1. You refuse to answer and that is a red flag.

2. You lie and that is a reason to refuse entry.

3. You offer up the bare minimum and it can be construed as some combination of 1. and 2.

4. You offer up everything, and you have totally given up far more than what is revealed by just having a Facebook or Twitter account.

The question, whilst appearing simple and clear, is incredibly vague and a minefield for anyone trying to answer it.

I'm reminded of the quote from the film War Games, "The only way to win is not to play.". If travelling to the USA is part of your life, perhaps it's time to close social media accounts and just call the people you want to talk to.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#83

Post by vacri »

jacquesm wrote: post #35
peyton wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sarcasm, but given there are hundreds of millions of US border crossings annually, a policy of taking everything seriously regardless of size probably does make the US safer.

I'm sure that there are lines somewhere between 'taking things seriously', 'overreacting' and 'making examples of people'. Ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer. It's a stupid question because nobody in their right mind would answer 'yes' to the question which just leaves people with a language barrier (which have a high incidence rate at borders), people that are nervous and/or tired (ditto, probably includi…

Not to mention that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

"Are you a terrorist?" -> "No, but I'm a soldier for The Cause..."

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#84

Post by geomark »

I used to live in the US. Now I live in a country ruled by a military dictatorship. This year they started with an immigration form that asks for social media accounts, currently optional same as the US. When I left the US I never thought I would be watching the US steadily implement many of the steps of a military dictatorship. The thing is, the US gov is so much more powerful and skilled at surveillance and dirty work than the tin pot dictators I live under, which has led to the weird realization that living under a military dictatorship can actually be better than US-style "democracy".

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#85

Post by VLM »

ams6110 wrote: post #78
riprowan wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your body language and voice levels can help reveal some truth or at least the fact that you're uncomfortable answering the question. Maybe I'm actually just uncomfortable being grilled by my own paranoid countrymen without my guaranteed Constitutional protections as though I'm some sort of enemy of the state when really I just got back from Cozumel.

If you are a US citizen returning from abroad you are likely not going to be "grilled" at the border. You'll be asked a few routine questions about where you visited, the purpose of your travel, etc.

You'll get to fill out a boring customs declaration forum. No carrying food into the country or smuggling in plants/animals/pets, no carrying over $5K of cash or equivalent, etc. If you have nothing to declare sometimes you didn't need to fill out the form. I never understood that in the past, perhaps it had something to do with no checked luggage (or no luggage at all) equals no declaration form.

In the old days they were lazy and handed out Visa Waiver forms to everyone on the plane. Perhaps they've stopped doing that. The Visa Waiver form is the famous "are you a terrorist?" Q+A forum. You don't have to fill that out if you're a citizen because entering the USA as a citizen never requires a visa. Theoretically if you have a visa (are a citizen of a non-visa waiver country) someone already signed for you and investigated such that you're not a terrorist and filling out a visa waiver would be pretty pointless if you require and have a visa.

Immigration officials seem to delight in pulling peoples chains, and you have nothing more interesting to do while waiting in line, so local variation and variation over time is highly likely.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#86

Post by throwawaysocks »

VLM wrote: post #80
cesarb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And why would you be uncomfortable answering a question about whether your a terrorist or not? Because it can be interpreted as accusing you of being a terrorist, which is very offensive.

Not anymore. For better or worse the definition is being expanded such that we're all going to be classified as terrorists soon enough. Terrorists have fewer rights than the average citizen, so its inevitable. Am I a terrorist? Well, yes, yes I am. My wife donated some money to our local mainline Catholic church and they've participated in some anti-abortion activities and some define that as financial support of ter…

The term "terrorist" doesn't have a single fixed meaning. It's context-dependent. Pretending it's not context-dependent willfully misinterprets the speaker.

A lot of words function like this. E.g., "believer".

When a christian asks me if I'm a believer I might say yes.

But then I'd probably say no if a wiccan asked me the same question.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that everyone (or no one) is a believer once you fix some additional context.

So in summary, according to the sense in which the USFG is using the term, you're simply not a terrorist.

Everything else about your post is just a slippery slope argument, which may or may not be valid, but certainly isn't well-substantiated.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#87

Post by KKKKkkkk1 »

ipsin wrote: post #73

This is disturbing despite it being "optional", because it's a place for border agents to push in the entry interview. "I noticed you didn't fill out the question regarding online identity. Do you have an online identity?" Sure, you can (and should) tell the agent that's all personal information, but that may also lead to further hassles and delays.

If you're a nonresident, the CBP officer has full discretion whether to let you in or not, and you have no right of appeal. So when the officer asks you a question, answering it is not really optional.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#88

Post by throwawaysocks »

yaps8 wrote: post #46
agotterer wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The border agents are looking for you to slip up or provide a tell. Asking questions like that may sound silly, but that's the point. They want to try to catch people off guard with unexpected questions and see how they react. These agents are trained to read your reaction and body language. Your body language and voice levels can help reveal some truth or at least the fact that you're uncomfortable answering the que…

I wonder how they are trained to differentiate between someone who is hiding something and someone who is uncomfortable because they have been in a 10 hours flight, barely slept, have not been speaking english for months and are anxious to be suspected for nothing.

Ostensibly facial ticks or whatever.

Actually country of origin and maybe skin color / attire.

That's the function of pseudo-science bullshit -- you can ignore civil liberties and pretend you're not.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#89

Post by Someone1234 »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #87
ipsin wrote: post #73

This is disturbing despite it being "optional", because it's a place for border agents to push in the entry interview. "I noticed you didn't fill out the question regarding online identity. Do you have an online identity?" Sure, you can (and should) tell the agent that's all personal information, but that may also lead to further hassles and delays.

If you're a nonresident, the CBP officer has full discretion whether to let you in or not, and you have no right of appeal. So when the officer asks you a question, answering it is not really optional.

True. But it will be LISTED as optional on the form.

If you get an interviewed by the thugs at the border it will definitely be non-optional for all intents and purposes.

The whole thing is messed up either way. They'll no doubt just start asking you to log into your social media accounts so they can go through your personal shit, I've had US border agents go through my phone and ask me idiotic questions about the photos on it (all family vacation photos).

Entering the US or UK is a pretty terrible experience all around. They're rude for no reason (and it has nothing to do with their job), overly invasion, and their entire justification is based on their own gut rather than fact (inc. ten year bans).

PS - I have never been rejected at any border. Just been hassled a few times.

Re: US Customs wants to collect social media account names at the border

#90

Post by lovich »

Kadin wrote: post #66
dempseye wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not necessarily dumb because he made the mistake of thinking your border drones had a sense of humour. And given that English is probably not a native language for him, it's entirely possible that the sarcasm did not get through. Quaking in fear in front of authority figures might be the norm in the USA, but it is not the norm everywhere.

In that case, at least he received a gentle warning in the form of a few days in the cooler, as opposed to wandering into the US where his attitude could have easily (depending on his skin color and other factors) have gotten him a sucking chest wound for his trouble. Best to learn not to argue with people with guns at the border. (Somewhat tongue-in-cheek here but I actually do think this is the purpose of aggressiv…

I don't really have anything constructive to add to this, but the idea that the government is setting up bullys on the border to educate foreigners on how to deal with its citizens in a way that doesn't end in death, is beyond fucked up.
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