Live data from Hacker News

Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

211–220 of 254 posts

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#211
post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

we can expect politics in the UK to become dangerously divided and unsettled

Other way round. UK politics was already divided and unsettled, it's just that an illusion of stability and consensus has been pasted on the front. The cardboard facade has collapsed when asked to bear weight - just look at the leadership chaos!

This referendum and its result is really a result of dozens of problems which have been pushed under the rug. It's all the unexploded bombs of nasty controversies that were never properly defused, just piled up in a corner.

The "immigration" question covers lots of nasty questions, for example. What is the EU doing about refugees? Why has Sangatte festered for so long? What should the right response to radical islamist violence be? What is the economic function of towns whose businesses collapsed in the 70s and have not improved? What's going on in the "crap towns" like Great Yarmouth and Boston, Lincs.? Why are voters struggling to get GP appointments and school places?

What is the UK constitution? Don't say "unwritten", because that's not true; instead it's scattered bits and pieces from Factortame to the Good Friday Agreement. That's why we're having this discussion about Scotland blocking it - it's not clear how any of this works. Is it really a good idea that Parliament can make big constitutional changes by simple majority (e.g. Fixed Term Parliaments Act)? Why do we have so many different voting systems but use the crap one for the important election? Does the House of Lords count as "undemocratic" compared to, say, the EU commission?

What is the proper relationship of the non-English parts of the UK to the Union? Scotland regards Westminster as the distant, unaccountable elite and finds the distant, unnacountable Brussels elite more cordial. Despite the fisheries problem.

What should UK economic and employment policy be? Are we funding the current account deficit by selling houses to foreigners from kleptocratic states and China? Are we too dependent on financial services which are too centralised in London?

Was Greece treated fairly? What about Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain? What about the Polish constitutional crisis? Is Hungary run by Nazis? What if the Austrian election had gone differently?

Did you know the EU has a Trump-style border wall? It's in Bulgaria.

This twitter gives the view from Northern Ireland, which was "dangerously divided and unsettled" for years with malign neglect from the UK government: https://twitter.com/shockproofbeats

I'm sure that you, personally, have answers to all these questions. My point is that there is no broad consensus on all of them, they've nagged at the UK for years, and now they've all been made relevant.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#212
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> c) some proportion of those may well have either not undertood what they were voting for, or were misled. You could make the same argument about those that voted to remain. > That, combined with the fact that things are currently going to hell in a hand basket (look at the FTSE250, comprised of business that make most their money within the UK, as opposed to the FTSE100 which doesn't), makes the out vote at best qu…

> You could make the same argument about those that voted to remain. Yes. Do you have any examples? Here's the one I'm going to keep using from the Leave campaign: http://imgur.com/indvx6a

I think he's referring to Leave's argument that the EU was not in fact acting in the best interests of the people. This is because it is "undemocratic" - undeniable facts such as you can't buy straight bananas, re-cycle a teabag or have the freedom to trawl all the fish you want from British waters were, for example, put forward as proofs.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic control. That was it. I knew that it would have a negative effect on the economy short term but I wanted the control to be in the hands of the people I elected.

EU still has UK representatives...nominated by the ones you democratically elected.. But I get your point. Unfortunately the most discussed argument is to have sovereignty over who can come into the country and who cannot. That is racism to me.

It's the argument that was put at the front of the queue during the build-up to the referendum itself and makes for very polarizing headlines but it played almost no part in my decision.

I wanted sovereignty over everything: Border control is just one part of the whole argument.

> Unfortunately the most discussed argument is to have sovereignty over who can come into the country and who cannot. That is racism to me.

I don't, however, agree with your stance that having a say who can and cannot come into the country is racism. How can you say that it's ok to let anyone in but by saying we need checks and balances is racism?

You may call it discrimination but that takes many forms, not all of them bad.

Racism it is not.

Edit: spelling, clarification

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#214
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that it's completely idiotic to characterise highly-prestigious globalist think-tanks as anti-immigration or lacking intellectual capacity. They hold globalist perspectives which are worth reading and understanding; in fact the more divorced they are from establishment positions, the more worthwhile it is to understand them. You are right that there are lots of people without University educations which b…

Many of the Leave campaigners do actually subscribe to these libertarian views, including the only UKIP MP. But they clearly believed so strongly, that they didn't think it was wrong to stoke immigration fears to win, and then turn round and explain that actually, free market economics suggests that low wage immigration is actually a good thing. This is playing with fire, and may end tragically.

I'm actually expecting a future government to turn round and refuse to replace the funding that used to come via the EU - as the economy will be in a bad state and we don't have the money anymore and, the main reason, which is pure ideology.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#215
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the solution have to involve freedom of movement? It's not xenophobic to want to curb the net migration number.

It has to because the EU are going to demand it as a condition of entry to the EEA. Not demanding it will invite any-European movements in other EU countries like Italy and even France to demand out. When it comes to Britain's future economy, the EU holds most of cards. And even if UK doesn't remain in EEA, immigration will be a fact of life. Hell, half of all immigrants in the UK don't even come from the EU!

Immigration will be a fact of life, and long may it continue. Net immigration on the scale we've seen lately OTOH, not so much.

Other countries may well demand a get-out, if they perceive it's to their advantage. And if it is, I'm not sure why the EU should seek to stop them either.

I guess we'll see one way or another.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the Leave campaigners do actually subscribe to these libertarian views, including the only UKIP MP. But they clearly believed so strongly, that they didn't think it was wrong to stoke immigration fears to win, and then turn round and explain that actually, free market economics suggests that low wage immigration is actually a good thing. This is playing with fire, and may end tragically.

I'm actually expecting a future government to turn round and refuse to replace the funding that used to come via the EU - as the economy will be in a bad state and we don't have the money anymore and, the main reason, which is pure ideology.

Which is already causing some angst.

Cornwall mostly voted Leave (higher the UK average) but have since asked for the EU funding for Cornwall to be protected.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwa...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#217
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. I didn't vote leave, for a start. The shouting down of dissenting opinions by either directly or indirectly labelling them as racist, rather than taking them seriously or even trying to understand them, is one of the factors that has lead to widespread disillusionment with both Westminster and the EU. That's what I'm saying.

Ok, I got you now and appreciate your answer. But let's be honest.. What's that "taking our country back" all about? I'm not saying that this is all voters general opinion, but it sure looks like the majority's. I don't hear anyone coming up with plausible arguments and I really wanted to hear them.

Oh I'm not going to claim there aren't racists and xenophobes around. I'm outraged that all leave leanings are characterised that way.

There are many good arguments and many bad ones that don't involve hatred of foreigners. "Take our country back" would, to me, meaning regaining full legislative control. Yes, this includes immigration, and yes I would limit that based on skills and an annual quota.

I don't believe for a second this is racist.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#218
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling episodes of racism and xenophobia for what they are qualifies as "hate" towards those who voted Leave? The attack on the Polish cultural centre is "rhetoric"? The murder of Jo Cox is rhetoric? Feel offended, but at least don't try to paint yourself as subject of hate.

The incidents you mention were awful and are not to be tolerated. We (as a nation) voted to leave the EU, not to allow this kind of hateful violence. But you know full well that the rhetoric I'm talking about, as exemplified by that post, is the attempt to paint everyone with any 'leave' symapthies as a racist.

"Of course not all Leavers are racists. That would be a terrible thought. But all racists now think 52% of the population agree with them."

https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/747080385683660801

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#219
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> c) some proportion of those may well have either not undertood what they were voting for, or were misled. You could make the same argument about those that voted to remain. > That, combined with the fact that things are currently going to hell in a hand basket (look at the FTSE250, comprised of business that make most their money within the UK, as opposed to the FTSE100 which doesn't), makes the out vote at best qu…

> You could make the same argument about those that voted to remain. Yes. Do you have any examples? Here's the one I'm going to keep using from the Leave campaign: http://imgur.com/indvx6a

They have made many dubious claims based on questionable numbers and a large dose of speculation. We were bombarded with remarkably similar scaremongering drivel like this, just as we were during the Scottish referendum.

- "Brexit 'could cause mortgage rises', says Cameron"[1]

- "Every household would be £4,300 a year worse off by 2030"[2]

- "Taxes would go up if we leave the EU"[2]

- "House prices will fall by up to 18 per cent by 2018"[2]

- "Inflation would be 2.3 percentage points higher if we leave"[2]

- "Leaving the EU would wipe £32,000 off the average pensioner’s wealth"[2]

- "Food bills would rise by an average of £220 a year"[2]

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36454017

[2] http://www.independent.co.uk/money/your-money/right-to-remai...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#220
post #200
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Gloucestershire. Overall it's not particularly diverse. One of the larger towns (Cheltenham, pop about 110,000) is 96% White British in last census. Nearby Gloucester is much more diverse - one street has over 70 different languages spoken as a first language, and the school in the UK (but outside London) with most different languages spoken as a first language is in Gloucester. So, while I believe the UK is…

If you ask ten random people in the UK to tell you where Gloucestershire is I would be surprised if more than three of them would be able to?

This is part of the problem! The UK has an inequality of attention: everyone looks inwards towards London. It's the places that are ignored that voted to Leave. And there are a lot of them.

I'm reminded of the proposal of "managed decline" for Liverpool in the 80s. Give up rather than fixing the problems. Ironically Liverpool has since prospered enough to vote Remain, although that vote may also be due to the longstanding boycott of the Sun newspaper there.

Post reply on HN