Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 254 posts

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#161

Post by toyg »

throwaway049 wrote: post #158
toyg wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole citizenship process costs around £1.5k, assuming you pass all hurdles at the first attempt, so for many is not a decision you can take lightly; prices increased 10x in the last decade explicitly to keep us Euro-rabble out. EU residents can still vote at local levels so we do get a say in matters directly relevant. I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respe…

"despite paying more taxes and using less services than most beleavers" This line of argument leads to a Poll Tax or other arrangement that ties voting rights to personal wealth.

Please don't look for strawmen were none were intended. I just pointed out how contributing to the country more than most people is clearly not enough to be welcomed, these days.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#162

Post by m-i-l »

throwaway049 wrote: post #75
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

"There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so."

It costs £1588 [0], which is a lot of money to spend on something which gives no benefits (to an EU citizen) other than being able to vote in general elections (and referenda).

[0] Comprising:

£1236 - citizenship

£72 - passport

£70 - Saturday appointment to check documents (optional)

£10 - passport check

£150 - English test

£50 - life in the UK test

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#163

Post by ghgfhgfhn »

kuschku wrote: post #141
robhu wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"

That argument also justifies dissolving the UK: Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland Or even dissolving England. Decisions about London should be taken in London. In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad". Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.

Perhaps that is what it is saying. Perhaps people are unhappy with representative democracy and want to move actual democracy.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#164

Post by mickronome »

dazc wrote: post #98
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.

Cursory looked up some ethnographic statistics the other day, and if wikipedia is to be trusted, UK as a whole certainly does not appear to be very ethnically diverse - although London is.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#165

Post by lhnz »

tt293 wrote: post #137
lhnz wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xenophobia isn't the reason intelligent people are pro 'Leave'. For example, many powerful free-trade Libertarian think-tanks backed Brexit: the Hoover Institution [0], the Cato Institute [1], the Adam Smith Institute [2], etc. These certainly aren't racist dumb-dumbs or protectionist "little Englanders", and their opinions are well worth a read. While bigots exist and certainly voted 'Leave' that does not mean that…

Not that many intelligent people are actually 'pro Leave': http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/files/2016/06/brexit-education-re...

My point is that it's completely idiotic to characterise highly-prestigious globalist think-tanks as anti-immigration or lacking intellectual capacity. They hold globalist perspectives which are worth reading and understanding; in fact the more divorced they are from establishment positions, the more worthwhile it is to understand them.

You are right that there are lots of people without University educations which backed Brexit. Rather than hating them perhaps you could try to understand their struggles and feelings on how they have been betrayed by the establishment [0]?

[0] http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/meet-10-brit...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#166

Post by gsnedders »

verbify wrote: post #128
Unosolo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commonwealth and Irish citizens resident in UK could vote, whereas resident EU citizens could not. A democracy is about people whose lives will be significantly affected by a decision having a right to take part in the decision-making. Why this logic was applied to resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens differently from residents from EU?

Irish people can vote in UK elections because of the Good Friday agreement - basically ensured that Republicans originally from Northern Ireland (and therefore had British citizenship) who resided in the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists from the Republic of Ireland who lived in the UK (I don't know how many of these there are) could vote in what they believed was their own country. It's a specific agreement that hel…

> Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs.

I presume it's related to their historic status as British Subjects (which some of them will still hold, though it's been impossible to gain status as such since the 1980s), which would have granted them the right to vote in Westminster elections and referendums.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#167

Post by ManlyBread »

dazc wrote: post #98
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

The UK is one of the most ethnically diverse and tolerant nations on Earth. This is a fact you'll find difficult to argue against.

Hard to believe when stuff like Sharia Zones are a thing.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#168

Post by rjsw »

broodbucket wrote: post #34
alkonaut wrote: post #24

Legally, as far as I understand no. But politically? Almost certainly. If Scotland could remain in the EU (By remaining , not re-joining, which Madrid would oppose) then they almost certainly would. This means that "brexit" would imply the end of the "United" in the UK and I believe that would be enough of a change in circumstances that a) leave politicians could hold off invoking Article 50 without losing face or b)…

Scotland can't leave the UK and remain in the EU. They would have to become independent and then begin the application process, which could take years. There's a real possibility that some EU members will oppose their application. EDIT: "UK Government could use Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty to apply for a treaty change which would allow Scotland to become a member when it formally becomes independent in 2016. The A…

There is a link on the wiki page for the Auld Alliance [1] that suggests that it is still in effect, it wasn't revoked by the Act of Union with England and Wales.

Maybe the Scots can just declare themselves to be French and stay in the EU that way.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#169

Post by cromulent »

Nursie wrote: post #156
robhu wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an extreme circumstance that is the role of the Monarch. In 1975 in an extreme circumstance the Governor-General (the Queen's representative in Australia) dismissed the sitting Prime Minister and appointed a new one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...

Indeed, to complete outcry, and I believe the post has been stripped of its powers since (though could be wrong). It certainly wouldn't fly 4 decades later.

Completely different to the UK situation though - the GG was acting according to the Australian constitution. UK law is obviously different. The Australian constitution only underwent a tiny change in 1977 that doesn't change the GG's role. I think it would indeed "fly".

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#170

Post by Gupie »

kuschku wrote: post #141
robhu wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-... The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"

That argument also justifies dissolving the UK: Decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland Or even dissolving England. Decisions about London should be taken in London. In fact, the argument you just quoted is basically "representative democracy is bad". Edit: if you downvote, please leave a comment arguing why.

Couldn't agree more, decisions about the Yorkshire should be taken in the Yorkshire:

http://www.yorkshirefirst.org.uk/

Post reply on HN