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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#151

Post by Tomte »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #60
broodbucket wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland can't leave the UK and remain in the EU. They would have to become independent and then begin the application process, which could take years. There's a real possibility that some EU members will oppose their application. EDIT: "UK Government could use Article 48 of the Lisbon Treaty to apply for a treaty change which would allow Scotland to become a member when it formally becomes independent in 2016. The A…

I wonder if they could do something crazy and structure Brexit as as England, Wales, and northern Ireland seceding from the UK, without ever actually invoking the exit procedures. It would probably never happen and would be incredibly silly but it's interesting to think about if it could.

That idea came up in an Economist article, but I just don't see it. Would Scotland even want to keep the Queen?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#152

Post by arethuza »

Nursie wrote: post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

"the likes of UKIP to become a seriously large party in the next parliament, not to mention civil unrest in various forms"

I think UKIP will sit back and let the next Conservative government fail to deliver on some key Leave promises - I think they'll be targeting the 2020 election on a "the Conservatives didn't deliver on what Leave promised but UKIP will" platform.

The next Conservative leader will probably offer Farage a peerage to try and neutralise him but I suspect he is far too clever to fall for such an obvious ploy.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#153

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

pi-err wrote: post #129
ck425 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely the former. That and possibly an attempt at a second indyref if the current momentum doesn't die. I live in Edinburgh, one of the areas with the highest No vote in the indyref, and pretty much everyone I talk to who voted No would strongly consider a Yes vote. Depending how the situation in westminster develops, this might calm down or it could get stronger.

I still see major obstacles to indyref 2: Scotland would have to join the Euro and Schengen, and build a border with England. That's choosing work over family and I bet Sturgeon doesn't underestimate the risk of a 2nd (and final) "stay". Also: borders are sacred in Europe. States don't want to split/remodel per a 60 years old tradition. There is a very strong case for indy Scotland (and i support it) but I admire tha…

> Scotland would have to join the Euro and Schengen

Theoretically, yes, Scotland has to join the Euro. The EU treaties as they stand today, however, would prevent that from happening any time soon. Scotland would need its own currency first, and then to join ERM2, and meet the conditions for several years, and so on. And, like Sweden, Scotland could choose to deliberately not join ERM2.

Schengen is more interesting, particularly the future potential situation in Ireland.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#154

Post by rlpb »

vmateixeira wrote: post #135
robhu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not seen anyone admit that they lied - I have seen several point out that what they said when asked about a policy was more nuanced than what was a slogan, but that is not lieing. Can you please reference where you saw a politician actually "admit they lied"?

Sure, here you go... http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/nigel-farage-labe... http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7943774.ece/ALTERNATE...

You've fallen victim to media spin. Farage did not claim this. In case you read the articles differently, Farage wasn't part of the "Leave campaign". He was part of the Leave.EU campaign. The media want to portray Farage as a hypocrite, so they write their articles to make it seem like he is. But understand the distinction between the two different campaigns, read the article carefully, and you'll see that the article doesn't actually say this.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#155

Post by Nursie »

rndmio wrote: post #115
_Understated_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

Until article 50 is invoked we're not out. And until that happens why should I accept it? The EU is no less democratic than the UK itself, and talk of "taking back democratic control of my country" is xenophobic even if you don't intend it to be. the EU is not the "other", they don't impose on us because we are part of it.

The EU has problems with democratic accountability.

That we also have them at the UK level is irrelevant to me, we're not having a referendum on that (yet).

Your definition of xenophobic is so wide that it would cover the very existence of nation states within the EU. I don't think all that many people share it.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#156

Post by Nursie »

robhu wrote: post #126
sievebrain wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally the UK is still ruled by the Queen. That situation would change in a heartbeat if the Queen actually tried to rule.

In an extreme circumstance that is the role of the Monarch. In 1975 in an extreme circumstance the Governor-General (the Queen's representative in Australia) dismissed the sitting Prime Minister and appointed a new one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...

Indeed, to complete outcry, and I believe the post has been stripped of its powers since (though could be wrong). It certainly wouldn't fly 4 decades later.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#157

Post by 5h »

_Understated_ wrote: post #87
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

Your parent poster said "that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing."

People with pre-existing xenophobic/racist have found vindication & legitimisation with the referendum result.

Many papers today are carrying stories of attacks along these lines, I'm sure the rest will in the following days also.

"It's over. We are out. Accept it or feel free to move to a European country... I don't mind."

The back-pedalling has only just begun. People voted leave for a lot of reasons, and they will have their displeasure at progress heard to differing degrees.

I'd suggest you give it a little while before you take it as read that any side won for the cause they voted for.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#158

Post by throwaway049 »

toyg wrote: post #127
throwaway049 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

The whole citizenship process costs around £1.5k, assuming you pass all hurdles at the first attempt, so for many is not a decision you can take lightly; prices increased 10x in the last decade explicitly to keep us Euro-rabble out. EU residents can still vote at local levels so we do get a say in matters directly relevant. I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respe…

"despite paying more taxes and using less services than most beleavers" This line of argument leads to a Poll Tax or other arrangement that ties voting rights to personal wealth.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#159

Post by pmontra »

kuschku wrote: post #149
pmontra wrote: post #93

Seen from another EU country, saddened as I am by the UK leaving the Union, my take on this is: 1) Even if the referendum is advisory, given the importance of the issue it would be difficult to dismiss it and do as if it didn't happen. I'd be embarrassed to make decisions with leaders that are willing to ignore such address from their people. 2) It's better for the UK to leave as quickly as possible because uncertain…

> No need to be punitive. Except, to prevent other EU nations from leaving, brexit should be as painful as possible. Ideally with the UK falling apart.

If it falls apart it will be because of its internal divisions, not because of external punishment. Actually, punishment often strengthens the bonds among the punished especially if it's deemed to be unjust. And a feeling of injustice could drive other countries to dislike the Union even more. It's a double edged sword that I wouldn't wield.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#160

Post by hjnilsson »

pi-err wrote: post #59
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

> Oh, by the way, "The referendum was non-binding, it's advisory". True - though the gov white paper mentioned that it was, in effect, binding because ignoring its result would irreversibly damage representative democracy. Even if the UK were somehow to backtrack: they broke any faith and goodwill on EU side (not the entire EU but key members). Politically, the Tories have to rally Brexit - or they will get killed by…

The government can just ignore the vote after reelection. If they say "vote for us an we'll stay in the EU" and win. That's the way it'll be.

In Sweden, several national referendums have been ignored by the government (shutting down nuclear power, switching to right hand traffic, new pension system). It has had no negative effect on either parties or politicians really. People are only angry as long as it stays in the public eye.

The truth is. To carry out politics you need politicians, and the No-side in the EU question is made up of a clique of populists joined by mass media. Without broad support by most politicians in the UK, the actual act of leaving will never actually come to pass.

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