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A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

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Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#31
post #18

The brexit will happen, but the result will be a trade agreement that imposes almost the same set of conditions on the UK, except without the ability of the UK to veto new EU measures. In short, the UK is still going to be controlled by Europe, but now without veto powers. The negotiators won't be trying too hard to get a better deal from the EU, because they'll be the ones in power, and if they fail to negotiate a d…

the UK is still going to be controlled by Europe No it won't, as the EU has become a legislative body governing aspects of people's lives in the UK and it will no longer be the case.

If there is still a trade agreement between the UK and the EU, then lots of things in the UK will still be controlled by the EU, as the EU is larger and will make the trade rules. (Also, the EU is quite bureaucratic and thus not so flexible, so it will not be very willing to make a special agreement with the UK. It's EEA, Canada-style, WTO-style, or nothing.)

If you don't want the EU controlling any aspect of the UK, you can't have a trade agreement.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#32

So... does anyone really think any democratic government would be so crazy as to totally discard the results of a referendum they called?

Sweden ignored a referendum where 83% voted for keeping left-sided traffic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H

Often decisions are better left to experts, something that representative democracy usually achieves. I also think that we should explain representative democracy as the population being able to hold the people in power accountable instead of the people deciding things. So democracy might even be a misnomer. This result is exactly what opponents of democracy meant when they identified it with tyranny of the masses.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happens all the time. The very union the British voted to Brexit lacks a ratified constitution, due to the rejection of referenda to ratify it in France and The Netherlands. Yet, the project continues! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Consti...

Speaking of which, isn't it about damn time UK got its own Constitution?

The Uk has a constitution, it is just unwritten.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#35
post #18

The brexit will happen, but the result will be a trade agreement that imposes almost the same set of conditions on the UK, except without the ability of the UK to veto new EU measures. In short, the UK is still going to be controlled by Europe, but now without veto powers. The negotiators won't be trying too hard to get a better deal from the EU, because they'll be the ones in power, and if they fail to negotiate a d…

the UK is still going to be controlled by Europe No it won't, as the EU has become a legislative body governing aspects of people's lives in the UK and it will no longer be the case.

If you want a trade agreement with the EU then yes it will govern aspects of people's lives in the UK because the majority of EU laws are trade regulations.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#36

So... does anyone really think any democratic government would be so crazy as to totally discard the results of a referendum they called?

Many senior politicians are now suggesting it. I truly believe that if this vote is ignored and the peoples will discarded, there will be severe violence towards those in charge.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#37

It really is a poison chalice all right. Of historical proportions. To be in charge when the United Kingdom comes to an end and Britain fades into irrelevance is something nobody could possibly want.

You move towards the picture you create.

This sort of crazy hyperbole is why many people are scared. The UK will be fine. We are members of the top international groups, NATO, G7 etc.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#38

Well that pretty much nails it. While on paper it still looks like Boris Johnson is in a great position to the vast majority of the public, the next Prime Minister is going to have to follow through with what they know is a terrible idea, negotiate with the EU with remarkably less leverage than the 'Leave' campaign thought they had, try to deal with Scotland wanting to leave, restless regional pressure groups in Wale…

Arg.. I just spent a half hour writing a long comment on this article, but then Chrome crashed when I hit "submit". I'll try to briefly retype my thoughts here since you've covered some of them.

It's quite clear that Boris did not want the referendum to win. While (like all tories) he would occasionally grumble about Brussels nobody considered him anti-EU during his time as mayor.

He was, however, obviously after the top job. He would upstage Cameron every chance he got.

When he decided to switch back to being an MP, Cameron brought him into his cabinet (without a formal position) He knew he had this referendum campaign to fight and having the popular internationalist by his side would help him command as much party loyalty as possible.

Boris then immediately pirouetted (bad mental image, that) and decided to lead the "Leave" campaign instead. The grassroots (largely Euroskeptic) tories who will pick the next party leader would appreciate his help. Cameron already announced that he would leave before the 2020 election, so this would mean PM Boris probably in late 2018/early 2019.

So the best result for Boris would be a narrow referendum loss while looking like a great anti-EU warrior. A lot of the rhetoric he employed was to this end -- when he would compare the EU to the Nazis, it would make him look fierce to the hardcore Euroskeptics who controlled his future, while whispering to the electorate-at-large that the whole Leave campaign was nutty.

It didn't work. He got what he nominally wanted, and now he has the chance to be PM faster than expected... but he has to deal with the fallout from this disaster.

If Cameron had invoked Article 50 immediately then the rest of the party would blame a sloppy exit on him... "we had a great plan to pre-negotiate everything, but Dave messed it up!" He's not giving them that option: if the country is to be destroyed, he wants them to pull the trigger.

It's startling watching the "moderate" Leave wing falling over themselves to dial back all of their promises during the campaign.... turns out there isn't more money for the NHS... of course there would still be free movement of workers from EU countries... maybe if Scotland doesn't want to do it we should call it off to preserve the union.... etc etc.. In victory, they're terrified of what they've done.

Of course, to the far-right any wavering will be seen as treachery. A fight is brewing there.

Meanwhile, Labour is also in full self-destruct mode. Corbyn just sacked the most credible member of his shadow cabinet and many of the rest will probably leave in protest. There have been many times in British political history when the out-of-power party goes through this sort of process, but never when the governing party is also in such disarray. Interesting times, unfortunately.

I don't know if UKIP will disappear, though. They could now be the party of northern grievance, locking Labour out of power entirely.

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#39

So... does anyone really think any democratic government would be so crazy as to totally discard the results of a referendum they called?

Europe has a strong tradition of ignoring EU referendum results.

The logic behind ignoring this one is pretty good too. Leaving the EU feels about the same scale as a constitutional ammendment in the US, and that requires 2/3rds gov't vote + 3/4ths state agreement.

Though this line of argument reeks both of moving the goalpost after the fact and "yeah the elite want to get what they want and ignore the voice of the people".

Re: A Scenario Where Brexit Does Not Actually Happen

#40
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the UK is still going to be controlled by Europe No it won't, as the EU has become a legislative body governing aspects of people's lives in the UK and it will no longer be the case.

If there is still a trade agreement between the UK and the EU, then lots of things in the UK will still be controlled by the EU, as the EU is larger and will make the trade rules. (Also, the EU is quite bureaucratic and thus not so flexible, so it will not be very willing to make a special agreement with the UK. It's EEA, Canada-style, WTO-style, or nothing.) If you don't want the EU controlling any aspect of the UK,…

Right now small businesses in the UK that don't export at all have to comply with all EU rules. If the UK leaves then they won't. So the effective influence will be greatly reduced.
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