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Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

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Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#61
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can absolutely run a company that allows users to communicate in interesting ways, and say you support freedom but also refuse to show content you don't want to. You can say you support free speech and ban free speech you don’t like. What?

(1) I support your ability to speak. (2) I have a forum. (3) I do not need to allow you to speak your awful, disgusting crap in my forum. Is there a part of this that's complicated?

Yes. You're missing:

(4) I will pretend to champion free speech and reap the good publicity, while simultaneously not allowing you to speak things I think are awful and disgusting.

That's the last point. If you're running a SF Giants' forum, you have the right to ban LA Dodgers' fans. However, you should not say that you're a bastion of freedom and upholding free speech at the same time you're doing it.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#62
post #7

One man's "extremist" video is another man's political views. Where does it stop? Does a video supporting Trump become an extremist video if enough people complain about it? What about a video that shows you how to take apart a pistol for cleaning?

I remember Reuters for years refused to use the term "terrorist(s)" because "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" (that's how I remember it), current guidelines see [1] The same applies here, is a violent political organization fighting an authoritarian regime by means of terrorist attacks an "extremist organization" worth blocking, or people fighting for freedom? A good recent example for how hard i…

I think you can make a moral argument in many cases.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can absolutely run a company that allows users to communicate in interesting ways, and say you support freedom but also refuse to show content you don't want to. You can say you support free speech and ban free speech you don’t like. What?

>You can say you support free speech and ban free speech you don’t like. What? Actually most countries that have free speech do actually ban certain things that fall under hate speech laws. Some of the things in the parent comment aren't hate speech. However I think it's certainly possible for a company or government to decide between what should be allowed or not allowed, and to do that in a way that isn't morally o…

It's a slippery slope argument: "ban ISIS and you'll eventually ban Trump supporters" (that seems to be jimmywanger's argument).

The same moral authority would be at work in both cases, so there's no fallacy in play, IMHO. It's a very valid concern.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#64
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree the west is more subtle. But aren't some westerners calling up 'getting rid of the islam/muslims' and that sorts? When does such qualify as hate speech? I just don't know :(

Well, Trump isn't saying we should kill them, only deport them. I think that is objectionable, but I don't think it meets the criteria for hate speech. There is obviously a line, and Trump hasn't quite crossed it yet.

Please cite a video where Trump says the US should deport anyone other than illegal aliens.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#65
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youtube, Facebook, Twitter all loudly trumpeted their attempts to assist "free speech", especially during the Arab Spring. And they were only doing that when what they were doing was going along with the cultural democratic zeitgeist at the time. If they were more open about "Hey, we're providing you a free service, we can shut you down if you don't conform to public opinion" that's fine also. But you can't have it b…

> If they were more open about "Hey, we're providing you a free service, we can shut you down if you don't conform to public opinion" that's fine also. But you can't have it both ways. That's why articles like these are being written—it's the companies letting everyone know that they're changing their policies. They used to be more laissez-faire, didn't like the results, and now are starting to rethink their decision…

Yes, but they will not be too clear about their elephant in the room: this will have demonstrated that free speech is not possible. Many here seem to believe in free speech, freedom to express anything, is an absolute. But it is not and cannot be. Tolerance has limits, and its limits is intolerance. Tolerance can happen only inside a framework, a common ground where the parts agree on some values, agree to tolerate each other.

Same with free speech: it is possible only inside a framework, with some higher order rules and agreement. One of them could be that you are allowed to tell others your opinions only if you would agree to carry them publicly on your back when waking your kids in the streets. This would certainly moderate a lot. Or, closer to the topic, I should be allowed to upload a video only if I'd be ok with my kid knowing I uploaded this video when they get to be my age.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#66
post #62
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember Reuters for years refused to use the term "terrorist(s)" because "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" (that's how I remember it), current guidelines see [1] The same applies here, is a violent political organization fighting an authoritarian regime by means of terrorist attacks an "extremist organization" worth blocking, or people fighting for freedom? A good recent example for how hard i…

I think you can make a moral argument in many cases.

But morality is just as subjective.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) I support your ability to speak. (2) I have a forum. (3) I do not need to allow you to speak your awful, disgusting crap in my forum. Is there a part of this that's complicated?

Yes. You're missing: (4) I will pretend to champion free speech and reap the good publicity, while simultaneously not allowing you to speak things I think are awful and disgusting. That's the last point. If you're running a SF Giants' forum, you have the right to ban LA Dodgers' fans. However, you should not say that you're a bastion of freedom and upholding free speech at the same time you're doing it.

(5) Extend "awful and disgusting" to anything that -however mildly- goes against your commercial interests or personal interests of anyone placed high enough in the organization.

(6) Still claim you're a bastion of free speech.

and -lately-

(7) Monetize other's expressions of correct free speech.

Ironically people actually seem to think this is worth doing. Compare youtube comments and people's opinions of them with, say reddit or wikipedia, both of which boast political moderators.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#68
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's that company's site then I don't see who else has any business getting involved. Do you want someone telling you what (legal) content you can or can't show? Why?

> Do you want someone telling you what (legal) content you can or can't show? No. As a citizen, I have rights. Corporations do not. I'm always amazed at this attitude that hates government power while willfully turning a blind eye to corporate power. The usual argument about governments having a monopoly on the use of force merely demonstrates the naiveté of the speaker. Corporations regularly use no only physical fo…

As a citizen you have rights. Your printing press doesn't. Nevertheless, preventing a printing press from printing hinders your rights. Same with a corporation and it's owners.

Nevertheless, you are correct that corporations and self-organizing groups have a large amount of power to manipulate citizens and voters. The blogger Mencius Moldbug wrote about this back in 2009 (https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.in/2009/01/gentle-...) - I've been rereading his blog on kindle whenever I have an 18 hour flight and it's quite prescient. (Just longwinded, why I reserve it for flights.)

There is also significant evidence that FB and Twitter are using this power.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/429656/twitter-milo-yi... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/09/facebook-...

In much the same way, Gawker's power was unchecked and unbalanced until Thiel and Hogan stepped in.

I don't know what the solution is or what solutions would be morally acceptable, but there definitely is a problem. The best I can come up with is reducing democracy so as to make manipulating the public a less valuable proposition.

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#69

One man's "extremist" video is another man's political views. Where does it stop? Does a video supporting Trump become an extremist video if enough people complain about it? What about a video that shows you how to take apart a pistol for cleaning?

This reminds me of a topic from Neil Postman's excellent "Amusing Ourselves to Death". To paraphrase: we're probably worrying too much about media censorship, and not enough about the mindless content media does provide that is filling up our time and dumbing down public discourse.

""" ...in the Age of television, our information environment is completely different from what it was in 1783.; that we have less to fear from government restraints than from television glut; that, in fact, we have no way of protecting ourselves from information disseminated by corporate America; and that, therefore, the battles for liberty must be fought on different terrains from where they once were.

For example, I would venture the opinion that the traditional civil libertarian opposition to the banning of books from school libraries and from school curricula is now largely irrelevant. Such acts of censorship are annoying, of course, and must be opposed. But they are trivial. Even worse, they are distracting, in that they divert civil libertarians from confronting those questions that have to do with the claims of new technologies. To put it plainly, a student's freedom to read is not seriously injured by someone's banning a book on Long Island or in Anaheim or anyplace else. But as Gerbner suggests, television clearly does impair the student's freedom to read, and it does so with innocent hands, so to speak. Television does not ban books, it simply displaces them.

The fight against censorship is a nineteenth-century issue which was largely won in the twentieth. What we are confronted with now is the problem posed by the economic and symbolic structure of television. Those who run television do not limit our access to information but in fact widen it. Our Ministry of Culture is Huxleyan, not Orwellian. It does everything possible to encourage us to watch continuously. But what we watch is a medium which presents information in a form that renders it simplistic, nonsubstantive, nonhistorical and noncontextual: that is to say information packaged as entertainment. In America, we are never denied the opportunity to amuse ourselves.

Tyrants of all varieties have always known about the value of providing the masses with amusements as a means of pacifying discontent. But most of them could not have even hoped for a situation in which the masses would ignore that which does not amuse. That is why tyrants have always relied, and still do, on censorship. Censorship, after all, is the tribute tyrants pay to the assumption that a public knows the difference between serious discourse and entertainment-and cares. How delighted would be all the kings, czars and fuhrers of the past and commissars of the present to know that censorship is not a necessity when all political discourse takes the form of a jest. """

- http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Broadcast_Media/AmusingOur...

Re: Google, Facebook quietly move toward automatic blocking of “extremist” videos

#70
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not about attacking/opposing political views, it is about attacking/opposing hate speech and inciting violence. If hate speech also happens to be a political view, then too bad. Yes, Western countries are also guilty of propaganda. But they are a bit more subtle about it and do not go over the edge as often. That edge is: (inciting) violence. This could be qualified as extremist content (if one were to be as ob…

I do agree the west is more subtle. But aren't some westerners calling up 'getting rid of the islam/muslims' and that sorts? When does such qualify as hate speech? I just don't know :(

Problem of course is that muslim countries, and plenty of muslims, are extremely intolerant of things like freedom of religion, opinion, and are in favor of things like killing gays and the like ?

Tolerating intolerant ideologies is not good, it is not social, it does not "fight racism". It it quite the opposite of that.

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