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Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

theguardian.com

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Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#71

Post by atmosx »

touristtam wrote: post #67
atmosx wrote: post #9

The EU membership will most likely come with a change of currency, which means leaving the BoE for the ECB. Given the ECB's track record and it's inability to do what a central bank ought to do - protect banks from bank runs, devalue, etc. - I believe that it's suicidal. The QE was was a joke. Surplus recycling is nowhere to be found in the European Union, vis-a-vis Germany Scotland will have deficit, hence it's doom…

The EU project is a political one (encompassing things like currency, fiscal and social union), and not just a single market like the most liberal English right winger want it to be. The referendum is a plebiscite for this politic, even though it seems that part of the electorate has been conned into voting to leave.

I have a romantic view of referendums: I don't believe that decision taken via referendum can be wrong. It's the quintessence of democracy and I ultimately believe in democracy, which means I believe that the majority votes as best as the can.

IMHO you're misunderstanding: Listening BBC Radio 5 the last couple of days I can say that lack of transparency, austerity promotion and the way countries like Greece (primarily), Ireland and Portugal were treated in 2014 and 2015 by the EU played a major role in turning voters to Brexit.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#72

Post by atmosx »

pm90 wrote: post #46
atmosx wrote: post #9

The EU membership will most likely come with a change of currency, which means leaving the BoE for the ECB. Given the ECB's track record and it's inability to do what a central bank ought to do - protect banks from bank runs, devalue, etc. - I believe that it's suicidal. The QE was was a joke. Surplus recycling is nowhere to be found in the European Union, vis-a-vis Germany Scotland will have deficit, hence it's doom…

Agree with most of your comment. One nit: interest rate (and monetary policy in general) isn't as important as the independence to determine fiscal policies. The two are related of course if you don't have an independent currency. That is my biggest beef with the Euro.

> One nit: interest rate (and monetary policy in general) isn't as important as the independence to determine fiscal policies. The two are related of course if you don't have an independent currency.

agreed :-)

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#73

Post by UVB-76 »

cygx wrote: post #37
_9MOTHER9HORSE wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might not be an EU by the time Scotland gets a vote to secede and begins an application to join the EU. Fascinating time to be alive.

There might not be an EU by the time Scotland gets a vote to secede Doubtful: As long as France and Germany are on board, the EU will survive in some fashion. The comment[1] of German economist Max Otte[2] regarding the British vote? Good riddance, now we can stop accomodating UK sensibilities. Also remember, when the UK wanted to join the EEC? De Gaulle sent them packing twice... [1] http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtsch…

> Doubtful: As long as France and Germany are on board, the EU will survive in some fashion.

I disagree. The UK was the third largest net contributor to the EU, and one of only ~10 member states that have historically made positive net contributions.

Its influence and role as a net importer from the EU will see it win a relatively favorable exit, including access to the single market.

The UK exit, in addition to the financial impact on the EU, will inspire many other member states on the verge of leaving to do the same.

The EU is already on thin ice, and the UK voting to leave may have just been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#74

Post by Oletros »

UVB-76 wrote: post #73
cygx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might not be an EU by the time Scotland gets a vote to secede Doubtful: As long as France and Germany are on board, the EU will survive in some fashion. The comment[1] of German economist Max Otte[2] regarding the British vote? Good riddance, now we can stop accomodating UK sensibilities. Also remember, when the UK wanted to join the EEC? De Gaulle sent them packing twice... [1] http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtsch…

> Doubtful: As long as France and Germany are on board, the EU will survive in some fashion. I disagree. The UK was the third largest net contributor to the EU, and one of only ~10 member states that have historically made positive net contributions. Its influence and role as a net importer from the EU will see it win a relatively favorable exit, including access to the single market. The UK exit, in addition to the…

> Its influence and role as a net importer from the EU will see it win a relatively favorable exit, including access to the single market. > The UK exit, in addition to the financial impact on the EU, will inspire many other member states on the verge of leaving to do the same.

I disagree, UK will not have an easy exit exactly for the reason you say. It will make leaving an easy thing.

And you only see the economical part, UK has been seen in the rest of the EU as an obstacle to the EU and closer to USA than UE.

Right now, they don't have so much sympathies apart from some far right parties. And I wouldn't like to be friend with them

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#75

Post by touristtam »

atmosx wrote: post #71
touristtam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU project is a political one (encompassing things like currency, fiscal and social union), and not just a single market like the most liberal English right winger want it to be. The referendum is a plebiscite for this politic, even though it seems that part of the electorate has been conned into voting to leave.

I have a romantic view of referendums: I don't believe that decision taken via referendum can be wrong . It's the quintessence of democracy and I ultimately believe in democracy, which means I believe that the majority votes as best as the can. IMHO you're misunderstanding: Listening BBC Radio 5 the last couple of days I can say that lack of transparency, austerity promotion and the way countries like Greece (primari…

Having seen first hand the British media (both English and Scottish) coverage of the debate surrounding the EU referendum, I can confidently say that part of the British electorate has been mislead to think all blame are on the EU institution. There is also the antiquated notion of Nation-State that does not apply to the UK as Northern Ireland and Scotland have voted to remain and are now seeing their future outside the EU against their will.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#76

Post by touristtam »

narrowrail wrote: post #70
touristtam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU project is a political one (encompassing things like currency, fiscal and social union), and not just a single market like the most liberal English right winger want it to be. The referendum is a plebiscite for this politic, even though it seems that part of the electorate has been conned into voting to leave.

I had to look up plebiscite, which turns out to be a synonym for referendum (as far as I can tell). As a result, your comment is kind of cryptic.

David Cameron has resigned as a consequence of the vote. This should give you a hint of why I call this a plebiscite for the Tory leadership (and by extension the most liberal politics they prone at home and abroad).

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#77

Post by cygx »

UVB-76 wrote: post #73
cygx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might not be an EU by the time Scotland gets a vote to secede Doubtful: As long as France and Germany are on board, the EU will survive in some fashion. The comment[1] of German economist Max Otte[2] regarding the British vote? Good riddance, now we can stop accomodating UK sensibilities. Also remember, when the UK wanted to join the EEC? De Gaulle sent them packing twice... [1] http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtsch…

> Doubtful: As long as France and Germany are on board, the EU will survive in some fashion. I disagree. The UK was the third largest net contributor to the EU, and one of only ~10 member states that have historically made positive net contributions. Its influence and role as a net importer from the EU will see it win a relatively favorable exit, including access to the single market. The UK exit, in addition to the…

The UK was the third largest net contributor to the EU

To keep things in perspective, the UK's contributions amounted to 10.7% of the general budget in the period 2007-2013.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#78

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Scotland, Northern Ireland and London wish to remain in the EU; non-London England and Wales wish to leave. The U.K. is already in the EU. Structurally, the simplest solution would be for non-City of London England* and Wales to secede from the UK, thereby allowing Scotland, Northern Ireland and the City to inherit the UK's EU membership. (Naturally, this won't happen because politics.)

* Why the City of London versus Greater London? The City exists as a special legal entity in British law. Given how Parliament derives its right to rule from the Crown and the City has a special arrangement with the Crown, the City would find it technically easier to withdraw from England (while remaining in the UK) than Greater London.

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#79

Post by ZeroGravitas »

bArray wrote: post #64
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland and London are the only two regions that pay their own way. The rest live off subsidies from the UK and Europe. The ironies and cognitive dissonance of little Englanders never ceases. Since this is a fact, you see some very odd and contorted phrases to imply otherwise. One classic is to say that Scotland spends more than it earns. Which is entirely true, Scotland runs a deficit. What isn't mentioned is that…

" Scotland and London are the only two regions that pay their own way. The rest live off subsidies from the UK and Europe. The ironies and cognitive dissonance of little Englanders never ceases. " I assume you don't live in England, or if you do you live in one of those two areas. It's not true at all. A lot of people travel daily to larger cities to work, making them look better than they are. " What isn't mentioned…

Did you even read the link you hastily googled? Spoiler warning, it confirms what I said in my comment:

“As official figures show, Scotland has paid more in tax per head than the rest of the UK in each of the last 30 years and we contribute a higher share of UK revenues than we receive in public spending.”

Re: Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership

#80

Post by bArray »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #79
bArray wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Scotland and London are the only two regions that pay their own way. The rest live off subsidies from the UK and Europe. The ironies and cognitive dissonance of little Englanders never ceases. " I assume you don't live in England, or if you do you live in one of those two areas. It's not true at all. A lot of people travel daily to larger cities to work, making them look better than they are. " What isn't mentioned…

Did you even read the link you hastily googled? Spoiler warning, it confirms what I said in my comment: “As official figures show, Scotland has paid more in tax per head than the rest of the UK in each of the last 30 years and we contribute a higher share of UK revenues than we receive in public spending.”

That's fair, it takes a while to get into it. I admit I was wrong.

They still run a deficit though and need a financial market strong enough for people to invest in. It'll not be the walk in the park a lot of people think it may be. There will be some really hard times to come if thr decision comes to leaving the UK.

I'm still not convinced it is in Scotland's interests.

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