Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum • Hacker News Board

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#41

Post by gens » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:26 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #29

curun1r wrote: post #23

The funniest/most interesting part wasn't the call for a second referendum, but the second petition described at the end of the article: A map of the petition signatures showed that most came from England’s major cities, topped by London where there is a separate petition calling on Mayor Sadiq Khan to declare the capital independent from the United Kingdom, and apply to join the EU. I'm not even sure how that could…

There's no way the independent London thing could happen in practice but a 2nd EU referendum is possible. The Irish repeated their one, the Scottish one looks like repeating. Go 2nd referendum!

There is already an independent London inside London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#42

Post by tim333 » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #31

matt4077 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem is that the British don't even know what to ask for. When examined closely, there really isn't anything actually that wrong about the EU. They could've gotten a lot more in the recent negotiations but nobody knows what that should be. The only specific grievance is EU migration and that just happens to be one of the four fundamental principles.

Ask a poor Greek who dutifully paid their taxes now struggling on 80 euros a week who can't get medicines if there's anything wrong with the EU. The EU's sheer brutality towards Greece is one of the reasons I abstained. They didn't have a democratic mandate to do that and the institution itself is being gradually changed in order to remove democratic oversight (that's one of the reasons they could be so fucking bruta…

Some of the brits may be rationally voting to reduce competition in the labour market but it's dubious that it'll work to raise wages. There is the counterforce of companies locating elsewhere to avoid tariff uncertainties. The main problem in Greece and the UK rural areas are the dumb austerity policies.

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#43

Post by TrickzOnU » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

kbody wrote: post #38

perlgeek wrote: post #30

That's not how democracy works. If there is a referendum, and you don't like the result, you don't just do a second referendum. If you'd do that, you could achieve any result you want, just by doing it over and over until. Due to voter's fatigue and/or daily sentiment, results will vary, so you can pick a result by deciding when to stop. It might make sense (though still be questionable) to repeat the vote if major f…

Personally I think a (major) referendum should be voted twice even with just a week difference. A lot of people most probably didn't vote because they assumed the result from the pre-vote pools and for other various reasons. Now everyone is alarm, they won't be leaving it up to chance.

If they didn't vote because they assumed some result, perhaps they are not as passionate about their position and should not get to vote a second time.

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#44

Post by rwmj » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #11

gakada wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the last thing they will do because then it would encourage every EU country to hold a referendum and do the same thing, which would kill the EU easily. [What I see as more likely is that the UK invokes Article 50, goes through a financial crisis, and then the EU offer to cancel our Article 50 invocation and let us stay in the EU if we join the Euro and Schengen.]

It's not obvious at this point that the EU will still be around a couple of years from now. I think if one more country votes to leave between now and then a renegotiation and some core constitutional changes become more likely. The basic problem is that the Leave side lied about the benefits of leaving, but they were absolutely correct that the core of the EU has become a neoliberal financial dictatorship with rathe…

> It's not obvious at this point that the EU will still be around a couple of years from now.

Two years! Pretty sure it will be around. Now if you'd said, say, 20 years then you might have a point.

Personally I very much hope the EU is around in 20 years, but massively reformed. I think it needs far more transparency and clarity (no more " Agreement"). Also every policy which doesn't have a good reason to be decided centrally should be delegated down to local level, even to sub-national / city / county level.

And you're right about the shaky financial foundations. I think the Eurozone, assuming it doesn't collapse, should be a separate organization entirely.

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#45

Post by sleavey » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #30

That's not how democracy works. If there is a referendum, and you don't like the result, you don't just do a second referendum. If you'd do that, you could achieve any result you want, just by doing it over and over until. Due to voter's fatigue and/or daily sentiment, results will vary, so you can pick a result by deciding when to stop. It might make sense (though still be questionable) to repeat the vote if major f…

Well, Nigel Farage immediately claimed after the vote was finished that he lied about one of the key statements made during the campaign (£350M/week to be spent on NHS instead of EU). Does that qualify as a major fact changing?

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#46

Post by scrollaway » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #31

matt4077 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem is that the British don't even know what to ask for. When examined closely, there really isn't anything actually that wrong about the EU. They could've gotten a lot more in the recent negotiations but nobody knows what that should be. The only specific grievance is EU migration and that just happens to be one of the four fundamental principles.

Ask a poor Greek who dutifully paid their taxes now struggling on 80 euros a week who can't get medicines if there's anything wrong with the EU. The EU's sheer brutality towards Greece is one of the reasons I abstained. They didn't have a democratic mandate to do that and the institution itself is being gradually changed in order to remove democratic oversight (that's one of the reasons they could be so fucking bruta…

As someone living in greece, I'm really tired of the country being used as a toy example for EU failures.

Greece's failures are mainly self-inflicted and run far deeper than the handling economic crisis. It's a complex subject, not one you can cheapen by emotion crying out "Look at the poor greek who cannot afford medication".

Seriously...

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#47

Post by claystu » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

mirekrusin wrote: post #36

Democracy doesn't work by voting until you get results you want.

"Democracy doesn't work by voting until you get results you want."

What are you talking about? That's exactly how it works! You vote for what you want and hope the majority votes the same and you keep doing it for the things you believe in.

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#48

Post by Asooka » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #32

Oletros wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not obvious at this point that the EU will still be around a couple of years from now Why?

Other countries look at the UK precedent, Greece leaves, things disintegrate.

Greece might leave, but I don't know of any other country that would want to go back to the days of restricted travel and trade.

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#49

Post by unknown_apostle » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

After France and the Netherlands rejected the original proposed European Constitution (basically confirming the EU as a socialist superstate), they came up with the Lisbon treaty. When Ireland rejected the Lisbon treaty, they were made to vote again one year later. I would say that some form of a second Brexit vote with slightly changed conditions would be a very EU-like thing to pull.

Re: Over one million people sign UK petition for second EU referendum

#50

Post by rwmj » Sat, Jun 25, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #9

michaelt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If exit negotiations take a few years, and the European wanted to offer the Brits a face-saving way to change their minds, they could adopt some internal reforms / offer Britain a better deal. Wouldn't have to be a perfect deal, just good enough to justify having another vote.

They won't, though. The EU elites want to discourage other countries from leaving. If they compromise then others will follow in the UK's path in order to extract concessions.

"elites" - that word again. Can you define exactly what you mean by it?