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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#971

Post by hk__2 »

grondilu wrote: post #596
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> I would guess no small part of them will try to move to the remaining EU states. You seem to underestimate the language barrier. I once talked to a few British young people about which country they would like to move to and I recall they mentioned New Zealand and the US, none of them mentioned any country in continental Europe and when I asked why I got confirmation that language issues matter. That's one reason am…

In some regions in the South-West of France the majority of immigration comes from UK. In some small towns almost 1 out of 10 inhabitants is British [1]. Admitedly these are mostly old British people looking for some nice place to live with a lower cost of life than UK.

[1]: http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/document.asp?reg_id=4&ref_id=1... (French)

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#973

Post by tremon »

Khaine wrote: post #709

I think this shows the dangers in ignoring those without power. For to long, people who were made worse off by integration with the EU were ignored, when they voiced concern about immigration were shouted down as racist, were mocked, were made to feel stupid and now this is the result. I'm not saying that racism or xenophobia did not play a part, but when you brush everyone with concerns with that brush you push them…

people who were made worse off by integration with the EU were ignored

Correction: they were made worse off by their own government. The EU is an easy scapegoat, but the EU did not close down the mines or manufacturing plants.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#974

Post by Khaine »

tremon wrote: post #973
Khaine wrote: post #709

I think this shows the dangers in ignoring those without power. For to long, people who were made worse off by integration with the EU were ignored, when they voiced concern about immigration were shouted down as racist, were mocked, were made to feel stupid and now this is the result. I'm not saying that racism or xenophobia did not play a part, but when you brush everyone with concerns with that brush you push them…

people who were made worse off by integration with the EU were ignored Correction: they were made worse off by their own government. The EU is an easy scapegoat, but the EU did not close down the mines or manufacturing plants.

ummm no.

I'm talking about the fact that unskilled wages have stagnated due to the influx migrants that was enabled by the EU.

Honestly it doesn't matter who is really to blame as the people who voted perceived that the EU was the cause. And in these circumstances perception trumps reality.

The lack empathy to understand where people are coming from and talking over the top to correct people is why this debate is so toxic, and why so many voted to leave. To win this debate the remain campaign needed to understand the drivers of brexit, to empathise with those wishing to leave and to show how that leaving wasn't the solution to their problems. Instead they browbeat people supporting brexit, by calling them racist, xenophobic, and stupid.

I wanted the UK to remain in the EU. I still do, I'm not sure where we go from here.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#975

Post by biggio »

audunw wrote: post #792
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US was a dream to follow, but it has also become a nightmare. The US federal state has become quite horrible over the years as well. My conclusion is that current day democracy does not work at the scale of hundreds of millions of people. The US, the EU, Russia and China are all examples of that in different ways. We need a new form of democracy which scales better than the one we have today. Only then can we try…

Russia? Yeah, right.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#977

Post by [deleted] »

_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

[deleted]

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#978

Post by tigershark »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

I can understand the US shared dream, but are you really serious about the other points? In what is today called United States of America in the beginning there were indeed people with different languages, religions and radically opposite culture. Manhattan, hearth of New York and global economy, was Dutch. California (or at least part of it) was Mexican. The vast majority of the land was inhabited by Native Americans. And you are telling me that a United Europe is more difficult than unify that unbelievable potpourri that was US at the beginning? Before the Brexit that was an ongoing process that slowly was moving toward a common goal. Now I'm not sure if Europe still exists.

As always democracy proves itself very dangerous. If I'm ill I go to the doctor, I don't start asking around common people opinions.

A very sad European living in uk.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#979

Post by chillacy »

davnn wrote: post #288

I truly do not understand our society. Europe is split, even if the countries aren't, the people are. Every political decision ends up being a race of the well-educated against the less-educated. The clash of classes happens not only in Europe, the Trump success is the same story. Maybe I'm just too young and uninformed to understand and that's how the world works ever since?

> a race of the well-educated against the less-educated

Education level correlates with income as well, so you could also say it's the high income vs the low income. If the going's good, you don't want to change things. If you're getting shafted, might as well shake things up.

This was on HN awhile back: https://morecrows.wordpress.com/2016/05/10/unnecessariat/

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#980

Post by joostdevries »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

As a Dutch citizen I very much feel kinship with people who happen to be from the other founding countries D, F, B, L, I. I speak their languages, I know their typical strengths and foibles, I've visited their cities, I know their history. We've been together for 70 stable years. The ministers of those countries are convening right now. And I very much agree with the words of the German minister Steinmeier "that those countries won't let anybody take that union away from them".
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