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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#961

Post by internaut »

grondilu wrote: post #607
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

In politics, I don't think bigger is better. I'd even say it's dangerous.

This is what we should be talking more about.

Once a political unit gets too large things get weird. There exists an optimum complexity for political units for them to function effectively or you get fragmentation.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#962

Post by mongol »

audunw wrote: post #792
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US was a dream to follow, but it has also become a nightmare. The US federal state has become quite horrible over the years as well. My conclusion is that current day democracy does not work at the scale of hundreds of millions of people. The US, the EU, Russia and China are all examples of that in different ways. We need a new form of democracy which scales better than the one we have today. Only then can we try…

How is China an example that large scale democracy does not work?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#963

Post by Wintamute »

randyrand wrote: post #262
M2Ys4U wrote: post #9

I have never felt less British than I do right now. :(

Are you a recent immigrant?

Cultural self hatred is common in the UK, especially in the liberal and middle classes, its part of the reason the left didn't mount a strong defense against the populism of the Brexiteers.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#964

Post by jpetso »

audunw wrote: post #792
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US was a dream to follow, but it has also become a nightmare. The US federal state has become quite horrible over the years as well. My conclusion is that current day democracy does not work at the scale of hundreds of millions of people. The US, the EU, Russia and China are all examples of that in different ways. We need a new form of democracy which scales better than the one we have today. Only then can we try…

I think it would greatly help if people who vote were required to demonstrate that they understand the underlying facts to some degree. In addition to making sure everyone has the means to freely access and learn these facts. Once you know the facts, it's much easier to draw correct conclusions.

On the other hand, democratic elections as we know them skip the basic-understanding part entirely and go straight to the debate, denounce & convince part. Having that would be fine if people actually had a solid base from which to judge these arguments.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if there were a test similar to driver's license tests, far less involved but still a bit of a hurdle, and the voter base shrinking to a much smaller but on average much better informed populace.

Again, this has to come with completely free, government-sponsored access to time, opportunity and information for any citizen, so that even the poorest homeless person has a reasonable chance to take and pass that test. In that sense, it's a fragile system that can (maybe too) easily be rigged against the poor and struggling by educated and potentially malicious actors.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#965

Post by eli_gottlieb »

FuNe wrote: post #659
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

EU was never about the people. It was and is all about banks and corporations. When they had enough for themselves and to provide enough scrapes for people to keep everyone happy all seemed well. The moment they started bailing in states to save banks and corporations (selling this as German 'austerity' fiscal policy) it all started cracking. So - to more and more 'Europeans' EU means a never ending future of jobless…

>It is unfortunate that extreme right wings and nazis are capitalizing on this frustration but somebody eventually would.

Somebody eventually would, and in 2008 it was considered of paramount importance that it not be extreme left-wingers and communists. Stomp the Communists, get the Nazis.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#966

Post by [deleted] »

geff82 wrote: post #554
mariopt wrote: post #8

Does anyone knows how this will affect tech recruitment?

I heard from Adobe that they will close their headquarter near London and move to their main operation to the Paris office. The UK branch essentially becomes a sales office, nothing more.

[deleted]

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#967

Post by yardie »

madengr wrote: post #754
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The EU grants rights; I have read your charter. In the US, our rights are inalienable and not granted by government; big difference.

In the US, our rights are inalienable

As long as you are white. They fixed that later with a few amendments. If you served a prison sentence you may have lost a few as well.

Seems like this inalienable rights can be taken away arbitrarily is what I'm saying.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#968

Post by sparkie »

geff82 wrote: post #554
mariopt wrote: post #8

Does anyone knows how this will affect tech recruitment?

I heard from Adobe that they will close their headquarter near London and move to their main operation to the Paris office. The UK branch essentially becomes a sales office, nothing more.

With any luck, Adobe will also leave millions of slow and bugridden PCs in Britain too.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#969

Post by dragonwriter »

madengr wrote: post #754
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The EU grants rights; I have read your charter. In the US, our rights are inalienable and not granted by government; big difference.

Both the EU and US structures of individual rights are based on philosophies of pre-existing, fundamental rights; both the EU and US have governing documents which establish legal rights grounded in those concepts of pre-existing, fundamental rights.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#970

Post by woodpanel »

As a modernist I loathe the Brits for this vote against the European project. As a libertarian I applaud them for their courage! As a stock holder I need a drink.

I try to make up my mind, which Union will be more affected by the Brexit: The European Union or the British?

Both institutions deserve some "house-cleaning" but after the Leave-Win it is sort of "either-or": A vote for "Union A" becomes a vote against "Union B" and vice-versa.

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