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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#701

Post by Jgrubb »

hmmdiggy wrote: post #687
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> Especially I am sad for the young generation in the UK. A very large part (about 75%) voted to stay in Europe, and this future is taken from them The undertones in this point imply that votes from the young generation is worth more than others.

I took it to imply that the youth will have to live with the consequences of this vote for a much longer time period than the majority of folks who voted to leave.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#702

Post by konart »

meowface wrote: post #208

In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low. However, it's possible a Trump presidency and fractured EU might lead to a perfect storm for some kind of global conflict in a few years. I think still a low chance, but it does almost sound like the beginning chapter of a history book.

As a Russian - the whole "Russia will take the chance and grab something else" amuses me.

Why would we grab part of Baltics or Poland? Crimea has strategic importance. Most of the Baltics - does not.

And Poland in the current state of affairs is more valuable as a partner, not as an emeny (despite our history of mutual distrust and wars)

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#703

Post by 323454 »

Looking at the age split in the vote, if I were a young Brit I would be considering tax evasion as a form of protest. If the older generation wants a free ride while simultaneously cannibalising the future of the young, let em starve (in the sense of reduced government services).

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#704

Post by tremon »

dangjc wrote: post #602
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

Freedom of movement is an ideal to aspire to, but maybe the reality we live in now is that immigration needs to be managed to maintain social cohesion. People need time to stop thinking of themselves as British or German first but rather European. Eastern European countries need time to develop. The Eurozone needs time to stabilize. Eventually I think the EU will get there, but maybe for now, the survival of the Euro…

People need time to stop thinking of themselves as British or German first but rather European.

This. But I will add that it is mainly the English that do not consider themselves part of Europe. You'll find much more European identity on the mainland, or north of Hadrian's wall.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#705

Post by [deleted] »

anothermouse wrote: post #640

For those of you outside the UK, please realise that this was not a xenophobic vote. Just because there were racist scum in the crowd voting brexit, doesn't mean all brexit supporters are likewise. There are many reasons why people voted to leave but the journalism covering this seemed to only be able to cover the sensationalist parts of the debate in the most childish fashion. This needed a serious discussion amongs…

[deleted]

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#706

Post by uncletaco »

redthrowaway wrote: post #487
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

The US did not magic itself into existence as a united state. It began in common purpose with a shared, very strong, external enemy. It then assigned itself a shared dream of settling the content. And, crucially, it already had a shared cultural identity, shared language, and shared religion when it began. The EU does not have a common enemy to force it together. It does not have a shared language, or culture, or ide…

Huh, I'd argue that the united states as we know it today is wholly a product of the civil war. Before that Virginians felt loyal to Virginia, New Yorkers felt loyal to New Yorkers, and frankly the United States right before the civil war was not all that different from the EU today. They spoke Spanish in California, the western territories, and Florida; French along the Mississippi river, etc.

I think this view of the US having a shared cultural identity at any point before the 20th century is very far-fetched.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#707

Post by glenndebacker »

FuNe wrote: post #659
_ph_ wrote: post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

EU was never about the people. It was and is all about banks and corporations. When they had enough for themselves and to provide enough scrapes for people to keep everyone happy all seemed well. The moment they started bailing in states to save banks and corporations (selling this as German 'austerity' fiscal policy) it all started cracking. So - to more and more 'Europeans' EU means a never ending future of jobless…

"It was and is all about banks and corporations"

Funny you say that. If I remembered correctly it was the UK that blocked a lot of the banking reforms because it wanted to protect their financial industry... Not the way around.

"EU means a never ending future of joblessness"

Weird independent projections in this European country talks about new 140.000 jobs in a period of three years and we got horrific terrorist attacks in March which has a big negative economic impact.

Maybe with regards of new jobs it has also something to do with political choices ?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#708

Post by pharke »

coldtea wrote: post #677
cabalamat wrote: post #568

> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share? The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is now called Western Civilisation. It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.

> It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species. This belief, and a horrid past (and present) of exploiting, plundering, murdering, etc all over the world, from the Crusades and colonial times to the Holocaust and onwards, is what makes it one of the most bloody and backwards "achievements of the human species". Some exhibits from the "greatest achievement of the human species": https://en.wikiped…

You can make a laundry list equally as terrible for any civilization that has ever existed. Atrocities are not limited to one particular culture, they are a shared human failing. I would argue that the character of a culture is not set by its lowest points but by how it claws its way back towards the light of liberté, égalité, fraternité.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#709

Post by Khaine »

I think this shows the dangers in ignoring those without power. For to long, people who were made worse off by integration with the EU were ignored, when they voiced concern about immigration were shouted down as racist, were mocked, were made to feel stupid and now this is the result.

I'm not saying that racism or xenophobia did not play a part, but when you brush everyone with concerns with that brush you push them towards extremism.

This is a sad day for the EU and for the UK. This is a bad outcome for each side. I'm not sure where we go from here.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#710

Post by return0 »

ck2 wrote: post #495

My question as an ignorant American is does this mean other countries might also leave and how many can leave before it collapses?

There are no announced plans for referenda anywhere else. I guess most of europe is standing waiting to see how this pans out. Despite common disgruntlement with EU, it seems most countries prefer to be in it. EU is capturing a lot of bashing because of other reasons, i believe. It is used sometimes as a scapegoat by populists.

For example look at this:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1740f3a6-2cc2-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519...

It appears EU is immensely unfavourable in greece, yet people again and again vote government to stay not only in the EU, but in the eurozone as well.

That said, I would wager there is a lot of cognitive dissonance and disillusionment at this time across both ponds of the atlantic. These are unpredictable times.

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