This was a very close vote. It should have gone to Remain.
But the culprit was the chancellor, who threatened people with a punishment budget.
The English do not like to be blackmailed. I think this was very much a "F-U" vote.
It is a classic example of a stupid mistake by a single politician.
UK votes to leave EU
461–470 of 1001 posts
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#462> In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low. I would have said the same thing 4 or 5 years ago, but in the meantime we did in fact have a war in Europe, I'm talking about the war in Eastern Ukraine (which is still part of Europe). But you're sort of right, who can think of something like that spreading to the Western side of the continent? Until last night I would would have answer…
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11966692 and marked it off-topic.
Sorry to hear that, as I've been on this website for 8 years now, I think, and have never commented about politics in here until this topic came up. But is disingenuous to mark this as "off-topic" as the anti-immigration discourse has been center stage in the "Leave" campaign, and as this topic is about the UK actually leaving the UK I fail to see how this was marked as "off topic".
This is just about decent people hiding their heads in the sand hoping that the problem would go away. It won't. I'm on Sam Altman's side on this (http://blog.samaltman.com/trump), even though he's talking about a different political idiot the idea is the same.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#463I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.
I think it's bizarre that a wakeup call is needed. From the moment I saw Trump talk the first time, I thought "wow, he's going to blast things to bits". A lot of folks think the USG doesn't accomplish things, that politicians are full of nonsense, that the media/news is junk. Simply that Trump is an outsider that's basically an independent should be enough for people to see he's going to win big. The fact that enough…
I think you're right. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but having grown up in Texas, the anti-Trump rhetoric is cringy in its disingenuity.
Part of winning an election is getting people to show up at the polls, so maybe the Trump opposition rhetoric is aimed at turnout rather than conversion of his supporters.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#464As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…
You think the "scaremongering" is "going on"? I don't think it has even fully started yet ...
Reality will be a lot scarier.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#465> In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low. I would have said the same thing 4 or 5 years ago, but in the meantime we did in fact have a war in Europe, I'm talking about the war in Eastern Ukraine (which is still part of Europe). But you're sort of right, who can think of something like that spreading to the Western side of the continent? Until last night I would would have answer…
>" mainstream politician talk so vividly against immigration and against "multinationals" in 2016 " There is nothing inherently "good" about those concepts, so I don't see how you can claim it bad that a politician is against them. Is treating people fairly a good that we should all aspire to? Yes (I would say)? Then respect a peoples' wish to stay sovereign and keep people they don't want from entering their country…
> Then respect a peoples' wish to stay sovereign and keep people they don't want from entering their country.
Any schemes proposed by Leave would probably see a rise in immigration.
And that's the problem: Farage isn't debating multiculturalism or immigration. He's lying about what he can do and about the effects of immigration. He trades on ignorance and fear.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#466> Obama threatened the UK of no trade deal.
He NEVER said that. You're either lying or ignorant.
He simply said that the UK would go to the back of the line for trade deals and given it is simply a smaller market than the EU this is understandably so.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#467As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…
The scaremongering has just begun. A successful UK exit is going to be powerful ammunition for any nationalist politician in any EU country.
Fat chance of a "successful exit" ... so no worries!
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#468A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a lot of fundamental rights and freedoms. In my eyes, the EU was very much about the same thing. It didn't matter in which part of the EU you lived or had your business. Being part of the EU granted you rights and equal access to the rest of Europe.
The EU in my eyes should aspire, to what the US has achieved already, being a large region, composed of quite a lot of different states, which are united, so that there are no arbitrary geographic borders limiting the freedom and the rights of the individual. This is not always easy, and it means, that the richer parts have to give to the poorer, but that is just basic humanity.
Especially I am sad for the young generation in the UK. A very large part (about 75%) voted to stay in Europe, and this future is taken from them. I would guess no small part of them will try to move to the remaining EU states.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#469Is Scotland going to be exiting the UK next? Guess we'll see in a few years. Hard to know what will happen here, but I suspect once the UK (or what's left of it) signs a trade deal with the EU, they'll get the same deal as Norway - all the compliance with EU regulations, with none of the say. I suppose people may be happy with that deal, as long as they can get to say they're "free". I'm hoping this somehow leave the…
> Is Scotland going to be exiting the UK next? Guess we'll see in a few years. It's possible. The same with northern ireland. But more interesting question is which european country will leave the EU next. Hungary? Greece? Finland? The UK is a pillar of the EU ( 2nd largest economy and the 3rd most populous country ). Don't see the EU surviving without the UK.
These numbers only stand if you consider the current state of the UK. Without Scotland, no mines, no oil, less fish. England in itself, independent from the EU, cannot stand the test of time.
Re: UK votes to leave EU
#470The average age of someone who is voting to leave is above 60, the average age of someone who is voting to stay is below 35. The older generation have voted for something that the younger generation did not want but are now stuck with. They have voted away their future for short term gains. The sooner the baby boomers are all retired the better.
This becomes an interesting problem. What is the rational approach for a democratically smaller group which has the majority of future earning potential and is better educated ? (this holds for both the young and also for London). Do you leave? Do you back out of wider society and opt for minimal regulation and keep to your own sub groups? Do you grin and bear it as an obligation? You can wait - but the waiting perio…
Yes it is something that is quite interesting. There is a large disconnect between the majority of baby boomers and the majority of gen-x, y, etc. Baby Boomers are largely climate change deniers for instance.
Unfortunately, people who are making decisions right now aren't thinking long term. They are thinking about maintaining their own lifestyles despite saddling future generations with debt, climate problems, etc.