Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 213 posts

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#121

Post by bpchaps »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #107
bpchaps wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Most of those my age who didn't go into tech and got 'regular' jobs are absolutely filled to the brim with debt with zero way out. Those here in Chicago who have tech jobs aren't able to find jobs that match their skill. My highschool was mostly in the lower/lower-middle class range with upper-middle in honor's programs. Multiple times per year, they gave presentations about the absolute, unwavering impor…

Well as much as I appreciate your earlier points, I do want to comment: > The culture around college necessity is incredibly frustrating. To make matters worse, when the subject comes up, many people say things like "Not going to college worked for you, but it tends not to for everybody else and it worked for me blah blah." It doesn't ever, every push the conversation forward. It's a weird, frustrating form of surviv…

I agree that I'm an example of a particular survivorship, but that's not really my point. I'm kind of trying to get out of the usual tech force right now with a focus on investigative journalism. Going that route is an acknowledgement of my survivorship bias while attempting to play my part in making things mildly better.

I would love to see these conversations move towards discussion on happiness, fulfillment, etc of college. The lack of discussion is 95% of my frustration in these subjects and almost always leads towards the economic value of college, while ignoring the individual. College is ultimately supposed to help get access to a happier life through comfort, stability, etc, but my generation overall is very unlikely to get that with the state of their loans. It's really sad.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#122

Post by throwawaysocks »

niftich wrote: post #111
antisthenes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most notably computational finance and research in the natural sciences (material, biochem, physics) all require tertiary degrees since those courses are simply not available at the undergraduate level. The benefits of hiring these people by the financial and the pharma sector should be obvious.

Sure, but these fields are known for being selective, and objectively requiring a very high level of domain-specific knowledge. Presumably, they will remain this way in the future, despite the cost of education rising. Notably, if the field doesn't objectively require a very high level of domain-specific knowledge, but rather a general baseline command of a broad topic, eg. software development?

> Sure, but these fields are known for being selective

Lots of fields that aren't so selective also require a tertiary (= post-highscool) education of some form. Most notably, a huge swath of jobs in health care that involve patient contact.

> Notably, if the field doesn't objectively require a very high level of domain-specific knowledge, but rather a general baseline command of a broad topic, eg. software development?

It's of course possible to become a competent software developer without a tertiary education. I know, I did it (programming job offers right out of high school).

But it's not common, and the secondary education system in the USA isn't set up to enable that sort of thing at scale. IMO it should, but it doesn't, and subidizing tertiary education is far more likely to succeed, and at lower cost, than such a drastic reform to such a huge sprawling institution.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#123

Post by davidwparker »

I'm a little surprised that no one has suggested joining the military.

When I was in high school, my parents had no money for me for College. We were middle class, and my grades weren't competitive enough for me to get a scholarship.

So I did what I thought would work well (in 2002)- I joined the USAF as an enlisted "Computer Programmer". Fortunately, _did_ have a good education, so my ASVAB (military job test to determine what jobs you could be) score was relatively high. Joining as a computer programmer opened up the world to me like I couldn't imagine.

Ultimately, I ended up taking night and weekend classes while in the USAF and finished my bachelor's degree shortly before getting out. Later I would go on to get my Master's with my GI Bill because I didn't want it to go to waste.

I felt honored to serve my country and to contribute how I could and I graduated both undergrad and grad school with zero dollars of debt.

I think more people should consider this option, at least if they have a decent education and good military jobs open to them. Understandably, if someone joins as say, infantry, in the Army, it may not be so easy to go to school (though I have plenty of friends who did and took online classes!)

It's not for everyone, but it's definitely an option.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#124

Post by samfisher83 »

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

Depending on what school you go to in Texas it isn't that easy to get top 8%. Some schools like Clements which is 50% Asian its quite hard to get into top 8% even if you have pretty good grades.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#125

Post by radarsat1 »

gist wrote: post #81
dv_dt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

> So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed Well a good start might be simply avoiding majors that you know will go nowhere, don't you think? Like music, art and certain liberal arts. Even when I went to school it was known to be hard to get a job in those fields. But yet people still choose them and tried to "follow their passion". My passion was to learn something where I…

So is your answer that people who choose "music, art and certain liberal arts" deserve the problems they get from college debt? Does that imply that you are fine with a society where these career paths effectively do not exist?

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#126

Post by rayiner »

intopieces wrote: post #77
jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

>I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. That's the problem, not the solution. College should be for everyone. There's no reason why a person who becomes a plumber or peace corps volunteer or electrician can't also go to college and learn those things, among other topics. In 2015, only 33% of American adults had a college…

College is a waste of time and money for almost everyone who attends . In the 1960's, less than 10% of Americans had college degrees. Yet, we still had engineers and accountants and insurance adjusters, etc. Very few people, even white collar workers, learn anything essential in college.

The push for more and more college is a huge wealth transfer from the middle and lower-middle class to the upper-middle class professorial caste.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#127

Post by tptacek »

dv_dt wrote: post #65
gist wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong). There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as…

You don't generally pull the trigger on six-figure medical or law school debt in your teens.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#128

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

billmalarky wrote: post #52
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming they can get into college after that. If you think competition is fierce in a world of 7 billion people, imagine how it will look with 8 or 9 or 10.

You're making a lot of negative predictions about a world that is changing pretty drastically. Maybe you're right and we're headed for a dystopian future. While that's certainly a possibility, there are many other positive possibilities your children could experience (psuedo post-scarcity through the singularity, virtual reality, etc). I'd wager the odds are quite good that life will be a more positive experience in…

If I have kids and am right about humanity's bleak future, I both sacrificed my well-being to support children, and brought more sufferers into this world.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#129

Post by kamaal »

gist wrote: post #76
shostack wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key to this decision is also the ability to know what future demand for a given profession will be like, and have a realistic expectation of getting a job. Lawyers were misled by a lot of law schools, and their tuition skyrocketed. With automation impacting some aspects of that field, demand has dropped, and so several classes worth of students have been screwed. I'm not familiar with the medical field, but in theory…

> Lawyers were misled by a lot of law schools Generally a good idea to be skeptical of what someone selling you something is saying, right? I question whether any of these people who went to law school did much research or thinking (or if their counselors at schools did) in advance of such a major decision.

Programming/Medicine is a little different, you get a good deal of exposure as to what the job basically is even before you start your education is.

Other professions not so much. It would be hard to imagine for most people that a good deal of work in law wouldn't even happen in courts. Stuff like documentation and range of other things are hard to see while you are picking the course.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#130

Post by throwawaysocks »

niftich wrote: post #120
throwawaysocks wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is mostly completely obvious, and the fact that you're even asking makes me wonder if you're trolling (EDIT: apologies, I over-reach). Here are some categories of jobs for which most people don't or can't self-teach, or where a tertiary degree is the default route: Huge swaths of the medical profession (MDs, BSNs, PAs, DOs, Pharm.D.'s, ...) Non-BSN nurses and expert tradesmen and craftsmen (tertiary == pos…

It was a genuine question, and here's why: if these advanced degrees possess such importance to their respective fields that employers will refuse to hire anyone who hasn't attained them, that simply means that the employers have outsourced a large portion of their on-the-job training to public education. This is troubling, as why should my [insert some other college degree] subsidize companies of lawyers, accountant…

> It was a genuine question

Sorry for the snark then, I've edited my comment.

> that employers will refuse to hire anyone who hasn't attained them

FWIW I think that's different from what you asked -- refusing to hire people without degrees is different from hiring people with degrees, and is also different from hiring people because they have degrees.

It's possible that an employer hires only people with degrees and also doesn't discriminate on the basis of the degree. In fact, I'd say that's more likely than not for most technical positions. The mere fact pf the matter is that most people learn technical skills in tertiary educational programs.

> that simply means that the employers have outsourced a large portion of their on-the-job training to public education

This is unavoidable. Learning to read, write, do basic mat, basic science, etc. are all crucial skills that job readiness programs need to build on top of.

Mind you, there are also a lot of other reasons we as a society might want to subsidize education and even particular types of education. E.g., a lot of people argue that health care costs should be addressed on the supply side as well as the demand side.

> And if the above is true, the signalling theory also holds

You go astray here because you assume that education doesn't actually impart real and useful skills that directly benefit the employer. In most cases, the degree is more than a mere signal.

edit: apologies for typos; commuting.

Post reply on HN