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Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

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Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#891
post #888

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we can't agree on what words mean we can't communicate. This discussion is undermined by differing meanings for "data", to no purpose. You can of course instead send me a program that (better?) explains yourself, but I don't trust you enough to run it :) The defining aspect of data is that it reflects a recording of some facts/observations of the universe at some point in time (this is what 'data' means, and meant…

Why do you limit the meaning of 'data' to facts and/or observations?

"datum" means "a thing given" - a fact or presumed fact.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/datum

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#892
Hi Alan,

Imagine we have already gotten to a place where software hasn't been built like pyramids but with some serious object architecture. Let's just assume a Benjamin Franklin turned this computer science into a real science(as the good old Ben did with electricity). We're there. There are now trillions of objects within my reach, without creating a huge indexing table and depending on data, how do I reach the object I am looking for?

This was a huge problem on the internet and Google had a solution that many tolerated and even accepted. In biology you have structures and many cells compose bodies but as I understand it, the objects would be like functioning cells scattered around on the floor. Maybe give me a general and vague idea what the process for this input could look like: "discover songs that I might like but have never heard before"(I have a hard time dealing with abstractions).

Thank you!

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one thing that scared him away was the word "relevant"... VIM might have as well (very primitive). Emacs tries to do some things that are worth doing, but it brings the user into "textland," not "systemland."

Are we in a "textland" or a "systemland" when we have these symbolic conversations on HN across space and time?

More "textland" than anything else, though that has to do with the medium we're using to communicate "across space and time." What Alan has advocated is that the medium we're using in this particular instance should be a version of "systemland."

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we in a "textland" or a "systemland" when we have these symbolic conversations on HN across space and time?

More "textland" than anything else, though that has to do with the medium we're using to communicate "across space and time." What Alan has advocated is that the medium we're using in this particular instance should be a version of "systemland."

Imagine we had this "systemland" in place, what kind of communication experience we might have?

(For example, I came back to this thread from email notification.)

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't begin to get it until the industry started trying to use browsers for applications in the late '90s/early 2000's. I took one look at the "stateful" architecture they were trying to use, and I said to myself, "This is a hack." I learned shortly thereafter about criticism of it saying the same thing, "This is an attempt to impose statefulness on an inherently stateless architecture." I kept wondering why the i…

How can we bring back X11 and good old interactive architecture to the generation of programmers growing up with AngularJS and ReactJS? Or shall we reboot good ideas with IoT?

My reference to X11 was mostly rhetorical, to tell the story. I learned at some point that the reason X11 wasn't adopted, at least in the realm of business apps. I was in, was that it was considered a security risk. Customers had the impression that http was "safe." That has since been proven false, as there have been many exploits of web servers, but I think by the time those vulnerabilities came to light, X11 was already considered passe. It's like how stand-alone PCs were put on the internet, and then people discovered they could be cracked so easily. I think a perceived weakness was that X11 didn't have a "request-respond" protocol that worked cleanly over a network for starting a session. One could have easily been devised, but as I recall, that never happened. In order to start a remote session of some tool I wanted to use, I always had to login to a server, using rlogin or telnet, type out the name of the executable, and tell it to "display" to my terminal address. It was possible to do this even without logging in. I'd seen students demonstrate that when I was in school. While they were logged in, they could start up an executable somewhere and tell it to "display" to someone else's terminal. The thing was, it could do this without the "receiver's" permission. It was pretty open that way. (That would have been another thing to implement in a protocol: don't "display" without permission, or at least without request from the same address.) Http didn't have this problem, since I don't think it's possible to direct a browser to go somewhere without a corresponding, prior request from that browser.

X11 was not the best designed GUI framework, from what I understand. I'd heard some complaints about it over the years, but at least it was designed to work over a network, which no other GUI framework of the time I knew about could. It could have been improved upon to create a safer network standard, if some effort had been put into it.

As Alan Kay said elsewhere on this thread, it's difficult to predict what will become popular next, even if something is improved to a point where it could reasonably be used as a substitute for something of lower quality. So, I don't know how to "bring X11 back." As he also said, the better ideas which ultimately became popularly adopted were ones that didn't have competitors already in the marketplace. So, in essence, the concept seemed new and interesting enough to enough people that the only way to get access to it was to adopt the better idea. In the case of X11, by the time the internet was privatized, and had become popular, there were already other competing GUIs, and web browsers became the de facto way people experienced the internet in a way that they felt was simple enough for them to use. I remember one technologist describing the browser as being like a consumer "radio" for the internet. That's a pretty good analogy.

Leaving that aside, it's been interesting to me to see that thick clients have actually made a comeback, taking a huge chunk out of the web. What was done with them is what I just suggested should've been done with X11: The protocol was (partly) improved. In typical fashion, the industry didn't quite get what should happen. They deliberately broke aspects of the OS that once allowed more user control, and they made using software a curated service, to make existing thick client technology safer to use. The thinking was, not without some rationale, that allowing user control led to lots and lots of customer support calls, because people are curious, and usually don't know what they're doing. The thing was, the industry didn't try to help people understand what was possible. Back when X11 was an interesting and productive way you could use Unix, the industry hadn't figured out how to make computers appealing to most consumers, and so in order to attract any buyers, they were forced into providing some help in understanding what they could do with the operating system, and/or the programming language that came with it. The learning curve was a bit steeper, but that also had the effect of limiting the size of the market. As the market has discovered, the path of least resistance is to make the interface simple, and low-hassle, and utterly powerless from a computational standpoint, essentially turning a computer into a device, like a Swiss Army knife.

I think a better answer than IoT is education, helping people to understand that there is something to be had with this new idea. It doesn't just involve learning to use the technology. As Alan Kay has said, in a phrase that I think deserves to be explored deeply, "The music is not in the piano."

It's not an easy thing to do, but it's worth doing, and even educators like Alan continue to explore how to do this.

This is just my opinion, as it comes out of my own personal experience, but I think it's borne out in the experience of many of the people who have participated in this AMA: I think an important place to start in all of this is helping people to even hear that "music," and an important thing to realize is you don't even need a computer to teach people how to hear it. It's just that the computer is the best thing that's been invented so far for expressing it.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can we bring back X11 and good old interactive architecture to the generation of programmers growing up with AngularJS and ReactJS? Or shall we reboot good ideas with IoT?

My reference to X11 was mostly rhetorical, to tell the story. I learned at some point that the reason X11 wasn't adopted, at least in the realm of business apps. I was in, was that it was considered a security risk. Customers had the impression that http was "safe." That has since been proven false, as there have been many exploits of web servers, but I think by the time those vulnerabilities came to light, X11 was a…

I had similar experience as yours and was comfortable coding web pages via cgi-bin with vi. :-)

That is why now I am very interested in containers and microservices in both local and network senses.

As a "consumer", I am also very comfortable to communicate with people via message apps like WeChat and passing wikipedia and GitHub links around. Some of them are JavaScript "web apps" written and published in GitHub by typing on my iPhone. Here is an example:

http://bigdata-mindstorms.github.io/d3-playground/ontouchsta...

Hope I can help more people to "hear the music" and _make_ and _share_ their own.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#897

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think another way of looking at what you said is people can feel threatened or diminished by certain arguments, even if they're not directed at them, when certain cherished premises are challenged, and part of learning to argue well is to learn to take those feelings as signals that the argument needs to be looked at closely and seriously, but not as truth. It's not the final word, but more checking needs to be don…

Most people confuse "arguing" with "debating".

I agree. I hate to be a downer about this, but these days I'm glad to find someone who knows how to debate well, much less argue well.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More "textland" than anything else, though that has to do with the medium we're using to communicate "across space and time." What Alan has advocated is that the medium we're using in this particular instance should be a version of "systemland."

Imagine we had this "systemland" in place, what kind of communication experience we might have? (For example, I came back to this thread from email notification.)

It's difficult at this point to come up with an example, since we don't have it yet (that I know of), but to give you an idea, take a look at Lively Kernel https://www.lively-kernel.org/

If you want a demo, you can take a look here:

https://youtu.be/QTJRwKOFddc

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#899

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine we had this "systemland" in place, what kind of communication experience we might have? (For example, I came back to this thread from email notification.)

It's difficult at this point to come up with an example, since we don't have it yet (that I know of), but to give you an idea, take a look at Lively Kernel https://www.lively-kernel.org/ If you want a demo, you can take a look here: https://youtu.be/QTJRwKOFddc

Yes I have seen it when it first came out. Very impressive.

However, IMHO, there are a few limitations with these "desktop" type of environments:

1. Limited I/O capability.

2. Limited Network capability.

3. Limited mobility.

Follow the trails outlined by Bret Victor: http://worrydream.com/TheHumaneRepresentationOfThought/note.... , it seems that we are yet to find the "systemland" for the future.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't begin to get it until the industry started trying to use browsers for applications in the late '90s/early 2000's. I took one look at the "stateful" architecture they were trying to use, and I said to myself, "This is a hack." I learned shortly thereafter about criticism of it saying the same thing, "This is an attempt to impose statefulness on an inherently stateless architecture." I kept wondering why the i…

How can we bring back X11 and good old interactive architecture to the generation of programmers growing up with AngularJS and ReactJS? Or shall we reboot good ideas with IoT?

This is not "bringing X11 back," but it's an improvement on JS.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11965253

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