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College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

nytimes.com

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Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#61

Post by shostack »

gist wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from my peer group is that most people from my generation that went to college take on significant debt to do it. Isn't this basically the normal path people take to pay their way through college? (I didn't go.) Having kids is obviously a deeply personal decision and don't think I'm second-guessing you, but college funding is probably not a dispositive concern.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

Key to this decision is also the ability to know what future demand for a given profession will be like, and have a realistic expectation of getting a job.

Lawyers were misled by a lot of law schools, and their tuition skyrocketed. With automation impacting some aspects of that field, demand has dropped, and so several classes worth of students have been screwed.

I'm not familiar with the medical field, but in theory the same thing could happen there.

Nobody can see the future, so barring that, for many, taking on that level of extreme debt does not make sense.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#62

Post by jamesroseman »

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

That experience sounds remarkably familiar. I know here in Mass at least UMass Amherst has a remarkably good computer science program for how cheap it can be (if you qualify for the right tuition credit programs by scoring well on standardized tests in high school). Though it's a poor indicator of an undergrad program, their CS grad program was ranked #25 in the country.

While I understand your point, I take some issue with:

> the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs

Your points are all well made, but I'd argue that being lower class you're entirely dependent on financial aid and tuition subsidies if you get them at all. In the middle and upper middle class your fear (from anecdotal first hand experience) isn't if you'll go to college (which is a huge indicator today of whether or not you'll be better than your parents -- education), but where you'll go to college. I know a lot of peers who went to state or safety schools because of cost. I don't know a lot of peers whose family is in that same tax bracket that just didn't go to college. I do know many friends who couldn't feasibly go to college at all, and it's stripped their career growth and job opportunities. Not trying to argue, just facilitate discussion by voicing a dissenting opinion.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#63

Post by jamesroseman »

sotojuan wrote: post #17

In my experience the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs. Too rich for substantial need-based financial aid, too poor to pay without big loans. The only answer is merit scholarships, but those can't go for everyone, so you end up with moms taking their kids to 1000 summer activities so they're competitive :-) Here's a possibl…

That experience sounds remarkably familiar. I know here in Mass at least UMass Amherst has a remarkably good computer science program for how cheap it can be (if you qualify for the right tuition credit programs by scoring well on standardized tests in high school). Though it's a poor indicator of an undergrad program, their CS grad program was ranked #25 in the country.

While I understand your point, I take some issue with:

> the middle and higher income brackets (middle and upper middle suburban class) is the bracket that is hurt the most by college costs

Your points are all well made, but I'd argue that being lower class you're entirely dependent on financial aid and tuition subsidies if you get them at all. In the middle and upper middle class your fear (from anecdotal first hand experience) isn't if you'll go to college (which is a huge indicator today of whether or not you'll be better than your parents -- education), but where you'll go to college. I know a lot of peers who went to state or safety schools because of cost. I don't know a lot of peers whose family is in that same tax bracket that just didn't go to college. I do know many friends who couldn't feasibly go to college at all, and it's stripped their career growth and job opportunities. Not trying to argue, just facilitate discussion by voicing a dissenting opinion.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#64

Post by dietrichepp »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #22
billmalarky wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"assuming costs rise at the same rate as the last 30 years" I just can't believe that will happen. The millennial generation has been burned HARD by higher education. I'm guessing the demand for expensive programs loaded with amenities that provide little value will plummet by the time their kids come of age. I expect huge growth in low-frills low-cost technical programs. Also, the insane cost of higher education is…

Theres no network, no alumni connection, no shared sense of pride for an alma mater in a low cost no frills technical program. Like they say, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Yes, they say that but it's not true for everyone. Tons of people leave college and get a fresh start afterwards, without much connection to their alma mater.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#65

Post by dv_dt »

gist wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression from my peer group is that most people from my generation that went to college take on significant debt to do it. Isn't this basically the normal path people take to pay their way through college? (I didn't go.) Having kids is obviously a deeply personal decision and don't think I'm second-guessing you, but college funding is probably not a dispositive concern.

The problem with college is not that you have "significant debt". The problem is choosing majors and/or a career path that doesn't allow you to pay off that debt. My wife has "significant debt" from college and medical school (roughly 200k) that she will pay off over 20 to 30 years (or whatever it is). However she earns a good salary for what she does. As a result the cost of the education is similar to a cost of doi…

So at 17 or 18, with little life experience, students are supposed to make a financed $160k ($40*4) investment which may decide their economic fate for 20-30 years? Even with the help of parents and advisors to make predictions that isn't a good policy for the general case. (For one parents and advisor’s are also often wrong).

There are ways to achieve good outcomes in the current system, but that is not the same as systemically maximizing good outcomes for society at large.

I think the most efficient way to do that is to go back to giving significant direct funding to public university systems so they can offer low to no tuition education options. This puts competitive pressure on private universities and would have an overall downward effect on tuitions.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#66

Post by jamesroseman »

chris11 wrote: post #59
grimberg wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar situation less a local top-10 local university. I could go locally and walk out debt-free (actually ended up about $10k positive) or go to a better university (Illinois or Georgia Tech) and walk out with ~100k in debt. A bunch of very sharp people of modest means stayed local. Those that didn't had parents taking second mortgages to help pay. Suffice to say, I went local and things worked out in the e…

Do you think going to a better college would have made much of a difference in job opportunities? It seems like some of the larger tech companies do a lot of recruiting at state colleges.

[Anecdote] Here in Boston Microsoft built an entire office just to offer a great internship program (Foundry, now Microsoft Garage) to Harvard and MIT students. I think on average recruiters view top tier schools as places where your ROI for headhunting is higher, because more prospects are more likely to make it through the recruiting process -- but that's just a hunch.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#67

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

gist wrote: post #60
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a great answer and illuminates the serious ups and downs with higher education. However, I have two points that prevent me from changing my views: 1: The ex husband is a great example of how someone can go into tremendous debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy and still come out with nothing. 2: The rapidly increasing price of higher education compounds the risk of making the wrong choice. A mistak…

Yeah but the devil is in the details. Look further and you find that the husband is the type of guy who did very well in school academically but lacks the initiative to be the person who keeps the good job after law school. To that point he got a job at a top firm but blew it. One reason was he didn't want to put in the extra hours (I think) and he wanted instead to play with his young kids. The hard working guy who…

A caring parent would have to assume that in many circumstances, their child could very well be that other person.

Re: College Unaffordable Even in Higher Income Brackets

#70

Post by jamesroseman »

brianlweiner wrote: post #50
jamesroseman wrote: post #13

I think a reality that will hopefully soon catch up with societal stigma in the United States is that college isn't right for everyone. I understand this as a separate point from college being unattainably expensive, but it is an important point. I have friends who would be mechanics, Peace Corps volunteers, electricians, or plumbers if they hadn't instead gone to a private 4-year institution, pressured to attend the…

I don't think Peace Corp really encourages non college grads from joining, and I'd strongly discourage any 18 year old from signing up.

Sorry, I wasn't particularly clear. I had intended to say they'd be in the Peace Corps if they didn't have to deal with so much debt in the now. I re-read my post and see how murky that meaning is, sorry.
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