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Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

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Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#71

Post by dochtman »

itxifxuf wrote: post #10
eximius wrote: post #6

Hmmm. That 20% of Rust users identify as part of an 'underrepresented group' does not seem like poor number. I would naively guess that it is a larger percentage than exists in the overall technical population. If that's correct, then bravo Rust! (If anyone knows about numbers along those lines, I'd love to hear about it.)

Amazing how a bigger focus is placed on getting certain demographics to use a programming language rather than focusing on improvement of the language itself.

I would argue that the language will benefit from having more diverse feedback.

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#72

Post by arenaninja »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #53
viraptor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also like to see that. I'm in the "temporarily stopped using" camp. I love it, I got to the level where I don't fight the language anymore, but facing reality - I don't have a reason to use it. Everything I do at the moment, I can finish faster in Python and I know it's enough. (sysadmin / deployment / security tools) The moment I need good performance and safety (new protocol server?), I'll reach for Rust. But I…

I went further and now I write in Rust with the same speed as with PHP. And my benefits: awesome system of errors handling, enums, match patterns, easy and safe multithreading, MySQL shared prepared queries, and majority of bugs is being catched by compiler (thanks to strict typing and a lot of checks in compiler).

As a mostly PHP developer I'd love to hear more on your PHP -> Rust transition. I helped with a single commit to the early Rust documentation, but this was back in the alpha days. I'm still writing PHP because that's what the job is, but also because I couldn't figure a use case. Would be nice to see from someone who succeeded in his transition!

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#73

Post by alienated »

Manishearth wrote: post #42
fiedzia wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that many people use the term "guy" without relation to sex or even being a person.

I know. I'm not questioning the intention, I'm requesting the term not be used that way -- it is known to alienate people.

> it is known to alienate people.

So is language policing.

The Rust Code of Conduct [0] states:

Don’t just aim to be technically unimpeachable, try to be your best self. In particular, avoid flirting with offensive or sensitive issues, particularly if they’re off-topic; this all too often leads to unnecessary fights, hurt feelings, and damaged trust; worse, it can drive people away from the community entirely.

You've brought up something off-topic (and potentially sensitive) when there was no real need, and definitely no ill-intent in the original - and just like the code of conduct predicted, it's already starting to develop in to unnecessary bickering.

This sort of language policing is exactly the type of thing that can drive people away from a community - and was not really necessary in the original context.

As per the Rust Code of Conduct the correct response would have been:

if someone takes issue with something you said or did, resist the urge to be defensive. Just stop doing what it was they complained about and apologize

Now, before you go on to defend yourself, the CoC further states:

Even if you feel you were misinterpreted or unfairly accused, chances are good there was something you could’ve communicated better

And that's something worth considering.

Now, I know that the Rust Code of Conduct states that it is only enforced on official Rust venues, and so there is no expectation of you following it here on HN, but as a respected member of the Rust community I would hope it was something you would still follow in a public forum, out of respect for what it stands for.

[0] - https://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#74

Post by mook »

Manishearth wrote: post #34
panic wrote: post #16

According to the survey, ~16% of people experience breakage with minor upgrades. Isn't this a pretty serious violation of semver?

I believe (but cannot verify) that these breakages were due to libraries breaking, especially libraries which evolve in lockstep with Rust internals like aster. The main reason I believe this is because each release is tested against the entire ecosystem, and stability regressions are fixed. The only time that breakages in the ecosystem are okay are during a soundness fix where the broken library was doing something…

Doesn't the large portion of people using unstable libraries / things depending on unstable internals mean that the versioning isn't covering a large enough API? I feel like blaming the user isn't really going to help make the ecosystem more stable.

(Context: I went through the tutorial at one point and got really fed up that it wasn't possible to do it without involving crates because there wasn't any random number generation in the standard library.)

I of course understand that you folks are still working hard on it and it'll come in time; it's just that all other recent languages (Go, Ruby, Python, heck even the . Net and JVM ones) come with a large and usable standard library.

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#75

Post by Argorak »

progval wrote: post #23
Argorak wrote: post #19

Please note that this is a leak of an early draft for the rust community teams internal usage and should be marked as such. Do consider all numbers undiscussed and not cleaned up for flaws (we'll document the cleanups and the reasonings). -- Florian // rust-community team

Sorry, I saw it on IRC and didn't know it wasn't supposed to be public

Happens, I see the need to clarify a bit around #rust-community there :). No harm done.

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#78

Post by Argorak »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #66
egeozcan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you jumped from PHP to Rust? That is very interesting. May I ask what you were doing in PHP that you do now in Rust?

REST API for Angular SPA and Ionic mobile apps. Few months ago I wrote this article: https://medium.com/@eugeniyoz/restful-api-in-rust-impression... A lot of things between me and Rust has changed since then, but all changes are positive :)

Would you like to be featured on https://www.rust-lang.org/friends.html ? Feel free to click the link on the bottom.

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#79

Post by adrusi »

dochtman wrote: post #71
itxifxuf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how a bigger focus is placed on getting certain demographics to use a programming language rather than focusing on improvement of the language itself.

I would argue that the language will benefit from having more diverse feedback.

Does anybody actually believe that diverse cultural backgrounds are at all relevant to ideas about programming language design or compiler programming? Claims that diversity is good for project organization sound believable, but I see no reason to think the diversity of background has any impact on technical contributions.

There is no moral obligation to have a diverse group, just to have a group that is tolerant of diversity, in the interest of fairness for members of minority groups. Encouraging actual diversity is just a strategy to avoid letting people who don't care about this stuff develop bubbles of intolerance in homogenous bubbles where intolerance isn't challenged regularly. The presence of diversity indicates a lack of intolerance, but a group consisting entirely of one demographic could be just as tolerant, and its homogeneity just a coincidence or a result of lack of advertising. So I find it a little strange when a group is "congratulated" on its diversity.

Re: Results of Rust Survey 2016 – early draft for internal usage

#80

Post by alienated »

dochtman wrote: post #71
itxifxuf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how a bigger focus is placed on getting certain demographics to use a programming language rather than focusing on improvement of the language itself.

I would argue that the language will benefit from having more diverse feedback.

Since you are prepared to make that argument, in what way will it benefit?

Does the color of my skin, my gender or my sexual orientation matter when providing feedback for a project such as this?

I would argue that those things are entirely irrelevant in this context, and wouldn't want them connected/associated with any contribution I made.

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