Live data from Hacker News

Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

news.ycombinator.com

871–880 of 931 posts

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you try to pick a few, and I'll try to comment?

things/persons/places relationships time

These are often important, useful, and needed.

I would take a different perspective that puts as "higher forces" things like:

-- what helps thinking about things in general, about problems, and resolving them (epistemological concerns, which include the whole environment as intrinsic to "langauge")

-- representational matchups to what we are trying to model and create dynamic inference processes for (mathematical concerns -- this is why "mathematics" is a plural, in real math you invent maths when needed ...)

-- orthogonal axes for many areas, including meaning and optimizations, including definitions and meta definitions, debugging, reformulation, etc. (pragmatic concerns for eventually winding up with workable artifacts)

-- and so forth ...

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#872
post #861
post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interpreted his message as he did not only want evidence for the internet, but also the other stuff I mentioned, and their effects on kids. I'm sorry if that wasn't the case.

No, I did not mean I wanted evidence of their effect on kids. I want evidence that "putting your kid in a room full of $bad_stuff" always leads to addiction, since that strikes me as nothing more than scare stories. Good parents can raise their children correctly even with $bad_stuff present around them, that was the point I was trying to make.

> Good parents can raise their children correctly even with $bad_stuff present around them, that was the point I was trying to make.

I concur. But the internet exposure of kids is mostly not governed by parents. They either are alone with the connected device in their rooms, away from them, or with a mobile device out of their home. The best the parents can do is to educate the kids, but the public lacks the knowledge to effectively do so. They should be given the formation to be able to educate their children, and furthermore schools should educate minors on the use of tech.

"putting your kid in a room full of $bad_stuff" will mostly lead to addiction if the parent is not there to teach the kid: this is harmful to you; not you think?

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've found about the web, as it exists, is that the people who set up a system for the outside world to use change it over time. The URLs change. The CGI their service will accept changes. As things exist now, a program must use "sticky" names, and if a name changes, all of a sudden the connection is broken, even though the exact same functionality still exists. It would be good if a program could find the…

Hi Mark Actually, this is not quite true about Smalltalk code (which is linked to its class). But referring to things is also done via variables and selectors of various kinds, and these are names which have to be locally known. Smalltalk can also find quite a few things by description (for example it can find things like the "sine function" via examples of inputs and outputs).

> it can find things like the "sine function" via examples of inputs and outputs

I think this is a really important idea. On one hand, it can save us from re-inventing code which already exists (e.g. "this existing code will satisfy your test suite"), it can help us discover relationships between existing things ("the function 'sine' behaves like the function 'compose(cosine, subtract(90))'"), it can aid refactoring/optimisation/etc.

On the other hand, it could also help us discover services/information which we could not obtain by ourselves. For example, discovering a database mapping postcodes to latitude/longitude.

There's some interesting work applying this to pure functions, using testing https://hackage.haskell.org/package/quickspec and proofs https://github.com/danr/hipspec

It's also closely related to inductive programming (e.g. inductive logic programming, inductive functional programming, or even superoptimisation), where combinations of existing functions are checked against the specification. Of course, that leads down the path to genetic programming, and on to AI and machine learning in general!

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#875

I've seen similarities between your work (OOP) and that of Christopher Alexander (Patterns). Do you have anything to say about how your/his works tie together? (Note that Alexander's work is perhaps even more misrepresented in software than OOP has come to be). For example, he talks a lot about how anything that is to evolve naturally, or even properly serve the human component, must be composed of living structure.…

My favorite Alexander book by far is "Notes on a Synthesis of Form" (which he has disavowed ...)

Here is a PDF of a version with an added preface with that disavowment. His reasoning (focus on human application rather than just on method itself) makes sense to me, but I'm still excited to see read the methods.

https://monoskop.org/images/f/ff/Alexander_Christopher_Notes...

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data without an interpreter is certainly subject to (multiple) interpretation :) For instance, the implications of your sentence weren't clear to me, in spite of it being in English (evidently, not indicated otherwise). Some metadata indicated to me that you said it (should I trust that?), and when. But these seem to be questions of quality of representation/conveyance/provenance (agreed, important) rather than criti…

Information in "entropy" sense is objective and meaningless. Meaning only exists within a context. If we think "data" represent information, "interpreters" bring us context and therefore meaning.

Thank you - I was beginning to wonder if anyone in this conversation understood this. It is really the key to meaningfully (!!) move forward in this stuff.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#877
post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think if we could get rid of this notion we can probably move in interesting directions. Another way to look at it: if we take any object with sufficient complexity in the universe, how could it interact with other object of sufficient complexity? If we look at humans, as first order augmentation devices for other humans, it's notable that the difference between levels of complexity of their internal state is…

Welcome to Claude Shannon! It's not about the message but about the receiver ...

Actually it is as much about the sender and the message as the receiver.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#878
post #815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if "data" is a really bad idea?

Yes, I think if we could get rid of this notion we can probably move in interesting directions. Another way to look at it: if we take any object with sufficient complexity in the universe, how could it interact with other object of sufficient complexity? If we look at humans, as first order augmentation devices for other humans, it's notable that the difference between levels of complexity of their internal state is…

data isn't the carrier, it isn't the signal (information), and it certainly isn't the meaning (interpretation). A reasonable first approximation is that data is _message_.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#879
post #872
post #861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I did not mean I wanted evidence of their effect on kids. I want evidence that "putting your kid in a room full of $bad_stuff" always leads to addiction, since that strikes me as nothing more than scare stories. Good parents can raise their children correctly even with $bad_stuff present around them, that was the point I was trying to make.

> Good parents can raise their children correctly even with $bad_stuff present around them, that was the point I was trying to make. I concur. But the internet exposure of kids is mostly not governed by parents. They either are alone with the connected device in their rooms, away from them, or with a mobile device out of their home. The best the parents can do is to educate the kids, but the public lacks the knowledg…

Mostly agreed, yes. But I would rephrase it as "introducing kids to $bad_stuff without guidance is a bad idea": I don't think that permanent supervision should be required. Once the novelty wears off, and the parent is confident that the kid can behave themselves even in the presence of $bad_stuff, even "putting your kid in a room full of $bad_stuff" can be fine.

And I don't mean that in the sense of "the kids are fine with their heroin syringes", but in the sense "I can leave the cookie jar on the counter and it will still be there when I leave the room".

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It contravenes the common and historical use of the word 'data' to imply undifferentiated bits/scribbles. It means facts/observations/measurements/information and you must at least grant it sufficient formatting and metadata to satisfy that definition. The fact that most data requires some human involvement for interpretation (e.g. pointing the right program at the right data) in no way negates its utility (we've lea…

I think what Alan was getting at is that what you see as "data" is in fact, at its basis, just signal, and only signal; a wave pattern, for example, but even calling it a "wave pattern" suggests interpretation. What I think he's trying to get across is there is a phenomenon being generated by something, but it requires something else--an interpreter--to even consider it "data" in the first place. As you said, there a…

If we can't agree on what words mean we can't communicate. This discussion is undermined by differing meanings for "data", to no purpose. You can of course instead send me a program that (better?) explains yourself, but I don't trust you enough to run it :)

The defining aspect of data is that it reflects a recording of some facts/observations of the universe at some point in time (this is what 'data' means, and meant long before programmers existed and started applying it to any random updatable bits they put on disk). A second critical aspect of data is that it doesn't and can't do anything, i.e. have effects. A third aspect is that it does not change. That static nature is essential, and what makes data a "good idea", where a "good idea" is an abstraction that correlates with reality - people record observations and those recordings (of the past) are data. Other than in this conversation apparently, if you say you have some data, I know what you mean (some recorded observations). Interpretation of those observations is completely orthogonal.

Nothing about the idea of 'data' implies a lack of formatting/labeling/use of common language to convey the facts/observations, in fact it requires it. Data is not merely a signal and that is why we have two different ideas/words. '42' is not, itself, a fact (datum). What constitutes minimal sufficiency of 'data' is a useful and interesting question. E.g. should data always incorporate time, what are the tradeoffs of labeling being in- or out-of-band, per datom or dataset, how to handle provenance etc. That has nothing to do with data as an idea and everything to do with representing data well.

But equating any such labeling with more general interpretation is a mistake. For instance, putting facts behind a dynamic interpreter (one that could answer the same question differently at different times, mix facts with opinions/derivations or have effects) certainly exceeds (and breaks) the idea of data. Which is precisely why we need the idea of data, so we can differentiate and talk about when that is and is not happening - am I dealing with facts, an immutable observation of the past ("the king is dead") or just a temporary (derived) opinions ("there may be a revolt"). Consider the difference between a calculation involving (several times) a fact (date-of-birth) vs a live-updated derivation (age). The latter can produce results that don't add up. 'date-of-birth' is data and 'age' (unless temporally-qualified, 'as-of') is not.

When interacting with an ambassador one may or may not get the facts, and may get different answers at different times. And one must always fear that some question you ask will start a war. Science couldn't have happened if consuming and reasoning about data had that irreproducibility and risk.

'Data' is not a universal idea, i.e. a single primordial idea that encompasses all things. But the idea that dynamic objects/ambassadors (whatever their other utility) can substitute for facts (data) is a bad idea (does not correspond to reality). Facts are things that have happened, and things that have happened have happened (are not opinions), cannot change and cannot introduce new effects. Data/facts are not in any way dynamic (they are accreting, that's all). Sometimes we want the facts, and other times we want someone to discuss them with. That's why there is more than one good idea.

Data is as bad an idea as numbers, facts and record keeping. These are all great ideas that can be realized more or less well. I would certainly agree that data (the maintenance of facts) has been bungled badly in programming thus far, and lay no small part of the blame on object- and place-oriented programming.

Post reply on HN