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Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

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Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#831

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2nd Paragraph: How do they know they are even bits? How do they know the bits are supposed to be numbers? What kind of numbers? Relating to what? Etc

It contravenes the common and historical use of the word 'data' to imply undifferentiated bits/scribbles. It means facts/observations/measurements/information and you must at least grant it sufficient formatting and metadata to satisfy that definition. The fact that most data requires some human involvement for interpretation (e.g. pointing the right program at the right data) in no way negates its utility (we've lea…

I think what Alan was getting at is that what you see as "data" is in fact, at its basis, just signal, and only signal; a wave pattern, for example, but even calling it a "wave pattern" suggests interpretation. What I think he's trying to get across is there is a phenomenon being generated by something, but it requires something else--an interpreter--to even consider it "data" in the first place. As you said, there are multiple ways to interpret that phenomenon, but considering "data" as irreducible misses that point, because the concept of data requires an interpreter to even call it that. Its very existence as a concept from a signal presupposes an interpretation. And I think what he might have been getting at is, "Let's make that relationship explicit." Don't impose a single interpretation on signal by making "data" irreducible. Expose the interpretation by making it explicit, along with the signal, in how one might design a system that persists, processes, and transmits data.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#832

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It can't be turtles all the way down, so maybe set theory?

A good question isn't it? For parallel ideas and situation, take a look at Lincos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincos_(artificial_language)

Thanks for the reference. I've been trying to think along these lines.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data like that sentence? Or all of the other sentences in this chat? I find 'data' hard to consider a bad idea in and of itself, i.e. if data == information, records of things known/uttered at a point in time. Could you talk more about data being a bad idea?

What is "data" without an interpreter (and when we send "data" somewhere, how can we send it so its meaning is preserved?)

The more meaning you pack into a message, the harder the message is to unpack.

So there's this inherent tradeoff between "easy to process" and "expressive" -- and I imagine deciding which side you want to lean toward depends on the context.

Check this out for a practical example: https://www.practicingruby.com/articles/information-anatomy

(not a Ruby article, but instead about essential structure of messages, loosely inspired by ideas in Gödel, Escher, Bach)

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#834

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It's hard for me to grasp what this negotiation would look like. Particularly with objects that haven't encountered each other. It just seems like such a huge problem. I don't really know anything at all about microbiology, but maybe climbing the ladder of abstraction to small insects like ants. There is clearly negotiation and communication happening there, but I have to think it's pretty well bounded. Even if one a…

It is worth thinking of an analogy to TCP/IP -- what is the smallest thing that could be universal that will allow everything else to happen?

I remember at one point after listening to one of your talks about TCP/IP as a very good OO system, and pondering the question of how to make software like that, an idea that came to mind was, "Translation as computation." I was combining the concept that as implemented, TCP/IP is about translation between packet-switching systems, so a semantic TCP/IP would be a system that translates between different machine models, though, in terms of my skill, the best that I could imagine was "compilers as translators," which I don't think cuts it, because compilers don't embody a machine model. They assume it. However, perhaps it's not necessary to communicate machine models explicitly, since such a system could translate between them re. what state means. This would involve simulating state to satisfy local operation requirements while actual state is occurring, and will eventually be communicated. I've heard you reference McCarthy's situation calculus re. this.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#835

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Take a look here: https://tekkie.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/sicp-what-is-meant-b...

Data, and the entirety of human understanding and knowledge derived from recording, measurement and analysis of data, predates computing, so I don't see the relevance of these recent, programming-centric notions in a discussion of its value.

What if "data" is a really great idea?

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#836
post #469

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SQL is declarative. Compare: for user in table_users: if user.is_active: return user.first_name; vs: SELECT first_name FROM users_table WHERE is_active It's unfortunate that the order of the clauses in SQL is "wrong" (e.g. you should say FROM, WHERE, SELECT: Define the universe of relevant data, filter it down, select what you care about), but it's still quite easy to wrap your mind around. You are asking the compute…

I fail to see a meaningful difference between these two approaches, especially if we transform the first one in a list comprehension: [user.first_name for user in table_users if user.is_active]

Totally meaningful difference! With the list comprehension, you're still telling the machine how to go about getting the data; there is an explicit loop construct. With SQL, I'm simply declaring what results I want, and the implementation is left to the execution engine.

For instance, the SQL query can be parallelized, but not so with the Python list comprehension. If you wanted to create a version that could be run in parallel in Python, you'd have to do it with a map()/filter() construct. Ignoring readability for a sec (pretend it's nice and elegant, like it would be in e.g. Clojure), you are still specifying how the machine should accomplish the goal, not the goal itself.

    filter(lambda x: x is not None, map(lambda u: u.first_name if u.is_active else None, table_users))

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#837

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It seems that barriers to entry in hardware innovation are getting higher and higher due to high risk industrial efforts. In the meantime barriers to entry in software are getting lower and lower due to improvement of toolings in both software and hardware. On the other hand due to the exponential growth of software dependency, "bad ideas" in software development are getting harder and harder to remove and the social…

I don't know. But e.g. the possibilities for "parametric" parallel computing solutions (via FPGAs and other configurable HW) have not even been scratched (too many people trying to do either nothing of just conventional stuff). Some of the FPGA modules (like the BEE3) will slip into a Blades slot, etc. Similarly, there is nothing to prevent new SW from being done in non-dependent ways (meaning the initial dependencie…

Thank you Alan for your deep wisdom and crystal vision.

It is the best online conversation I have ever experienced.

It also reminded me inspiring conversations with Jerome Bruner at his New York City apartment 15 years ago. (I was working on some project with his wife's NYU social psychology group at the time.) As a Physics Ph.D. student, I never imaged I could become so interested in Internet and education in the spirit of Licklider and Doug Engelbart.

謝謝。

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#838

Hey Alan, You seem very disapointed and upset with the way computing has gone in the last decade. Speaking as a younger (15) and more satisfied (I still think the UNIX abstraction is pretty solid, despite what others may say) programmer, how do you not get depressed about the way technology is going? Also, what do you propose to eliminate the "re-inventing the flat tire" problem? Should every programmer be forced thr…

I do get depressed -- how could one not? -- the trick with depression is to not allow it to take you into in-action. Re: Unix etc. try to imagine computer systems without "operating systems" as they are thought of today (hint: look at the Internet, etc.). The basic heuristic here is to avoid the "when you criticize something you are implicitly buying into it's very existence!". First try to see if there is anything w…

> OSs are not necessary

Is this because web browsers are all we need? (I'm about thinking ChromeOS as an example.)

Currently, OSs are needed to create web browsers. Do you think there will be a time when a web browser will be able to compile itself (without requiring an "OS")?

Also, will the web servers also not require an "OS"?

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look here: https://tekkie.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/sicp-what-is-meant-b...

Data, and the entirety of human understanding and knowledge derived from recording, measurement and analysis of data, predates computing, so I don't see the relevance of these recent, programming-centric notions in a discussion of its value.

Computing has existed for thousands of years. We just have machines do some of it now.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. But e.g. the possibilities for "parametric" parallel computing solutions (via FPGAs and other configurable HW) have not even been scratched (too many people trying to do either nothing of just conventional stuff). Some of the FPGA modules (like the BEE3) will slip into a Blades slot, etc. Similarly, there is nothing to prevent new SW from being done in non-dependent ways (meaning the initial dependencie…

Thank you Alan for your deep wisdom and crystal vision. It is the best online conversation I have ever experienced. It also reminded me inspiring conversations with Jerome Bruner at his New York City apartment 15 years ago. (I was working on some project with his wife's NYU social psychology group at the time.) As a Physics Ph.D. student, I never imaged I could become so interested in Internet and education in the sp…

You probably know that our mutual friend and mentor Jerry Bruner died peacefully in his sleep a few weeks ago at the age of 100, and with much of his joie de vivre beautifully still with him. There will never be another Jerry.
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