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Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

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Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#151

Post by err4nt »

kogepathic wrote: post #59
MattGrommes wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you are but there are bound to be multiple woman-focused tech groups in your area. I'd encourage you to reach out specifically to those groups. A lot of times when companies can't find candidates who aren't the same as the rest of the company it's because they only use the same networks and resources that got the other employees in the first place.

I'm in Germany. If you're not in Berlin (which we are not) it's difficult to find female tech groups unless it's at a university.

Start one! That's how all of them began :D

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#152

Post by dpark »

fatdog wrote: post #140
dpark wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this argument before and it makes no sense. You're basically arguing that smart women recognize that engineering is a bad deal. Why do smart men not recognize the same? You mention kids, but that's basically a concern in any field in the US, because FMLA requirements are a joke. Plus many men in engineering (where parental leave is often much longer than FMLA requirements) take long paternity leave, and man…

If engineering were lower status work than a lot of people think it is, it would provide a more viable explanation than the effect of a conspiracy. Men in engineering on average aren't as smart as they think they are, and given the perceived barriers, mostly it is exceptionally smart women go into engineering. The underlying problem is that engineering is lower status work than its participants believe it is. Women i…

I'm pretty sure it's sexist (but maybe in the other direction?) to claim that men are in general too stupid to realize that they should leave engineering. "Perceived barriers" also indicate some sort of sexism is at play here. (The alternative that women are just imagining these barriers seems far-fetched and equally sexist.)

Perhaps more to the point, this argument only holds up if women who leave engineering go into more prestigious/higher status fields. Is there any evidence of that?

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#153

Post by walrus01 »

ltorresv wrote: post #146
geebee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to consider these posts by Gayle Laakman McDowell (who write "Cracking the Coding Interview") on possible problems with take-home exams: http://www.gayle.com/blog/2013/09/18/companies-who-give-cand... From her blog post on general interviews and take-homes: http://www.gayle.com/blog/2015/6/10/developer-interviews-are... "Be fair to candidates. Balance the demand on their time with the utility you get fro…

Same experience as OP here both on number of applicants and number of qualified female applicants. Take home test results were considerably worse for females too and they had over five days to complete a simple thirty minute exercise. There might be responsibilities that get in the way but IMO if you can't find a slice of time to work on something that came up then I'll be really careful in considering you for a job.…

ISP network engineering/operational support software team here: People need to be able to find two hours of time (over a 5-6 day period) to complete a small take home project. When they do it and how they do it is up to them.

If somebody can't do this then they would not be a good fit to be in the on-call rotation where 1 out of every 5 or 6 weeks you could have alert emails and phone calls ringing on your phone at 3am. Sorry, but five to six nines statistical uptime over one year demand it.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#154

Post by geebee »

ltorresv wrote: post #146
geebee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to consider these posts by Gayle Laakman McDowell (who write "Cracking the Coding Interview") on possible problems with take-home exams: http://www.gayle.com/blog/2013/09/18/companies-who-give-cand... From her blog post on general interviews and take-homes: http://www.gayle.com/blog/2015/6/10/developer-interviews-are... "Be fair to candidates. Balance the demand on their time with the utility you get fro…

Same experience as OP here both on number of applicants and number of qualified female applicants. Take home test results were considerably worse for females too and they had over five days to complete a simple thirty minute exercise. There might be responsibilities that get in the way but IMO if you can't find a slice of time to work on something that came up then I'll be really careful in considering you for a job.…

30 minutes sounds less objectionable than what I've experienced.

The episode that turned me badly against take home tests involved a two-phase approach. Both were handled through a recruiter. The first was about a one hour set of questions (what does this code do, implement this class, explain dependency injection, that short of thing). That went well, so they then moved to a homework project they advised to spend no more than 5-7 hours on.

I did this, sent it back in and... crickets chirping. I called the recruiter (in house) every week or so to follow up. In about a month I got the standard "we've decided not to pursue your application further at this time.

I honestly have no idea if anyone even looked at it. I certainly never talked to a developer.

I can see how a 30 minute exercise could be a good thing, in that it could save everyone some time. Even then, though, I see it as a red flag if a company wants too much of my time before I talk to a developer in the recruiting process.

Keep in mind also, there's a huge difference between being available to work on something that comes up in a job, and shaking free 5-7 hours for a take home test that a company only might even bother looking at!

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#155

Post by geebee »

thescribe wrote: post #147
ltorresv wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same experience as OP here both on number of applicants and number of qualified female applicants. Take home test results were considerably worse for females too and they had over five days to complete a simple thirty minute exercise. There might be responsibilities that get in the way but IMO if you can't find a slice of time to work on something that came up then I'll be really careful in considering you for a job.…

I agree, the inability to do homework would itself be a little bit of a red flag for me, beyond the quality of the homework.

It may be that the candidate doesn't want to waste time. There's a big difference between putting in some time on weekends and evenings for an important work issue that arises, vs doing some homework assignment that might not even get looked at.

I think this is one of the reasons Ms McDowell suggest doing the take home project later in the process, only once a candidate is promising, with a higher pass rate.

If you're using it simply to screen (i.e., if your pass rates are low), and the take home demands are substantial, you are likely wasting a huge amount of candidates time, in aggregate. This can legitimately harm a company's reputation among developers.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#156

Post by rimunroe »

loco5niner wrote: post #142
rimunroe wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the other commenter was saying that at the time people believed it was an acceptable answer, just as now you're saying it's a plausible explanation for this problem.

Yes, I understood he was referencing "at the time", that's why I included the word _was_. My point still stands. Although many people did accept it, it WAS not an acceptable answer, and IS still not an acceptable answer to justify segregation.

So wait, do you reject the possibility that this situation couldn't be the exact same as the one in the past? It seems like you're saying, "Yes, genetics was not an acceptable answer then, but it is now."

If that is what you're saying, then what makes it different now?

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