Earlier quoted context omitted.
Observe that there is no prime number which is assigned a nonzero exponent by p_n but not p_m, and there is no prime number which is assigned a nonzero exponent by p_m but not p_n. Herein is the problem. This observation of yours needs to be proven and is in fact the whole point of the proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic. That's the hard part. You'll also need to use the fact that every nonempty set of the…
That sentence is followed by a proof. You can say the proof is wrong, but you're missing the point to say "it needs to be proven".
Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
121–130 of 210 posts
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>So why is this false in Z[ sqrt(-5) ] I don't know, I don't know what sqrt is, let alone sqrt for a negative number. It's like asking someone who made a nice geometric proof of Pitagoras theorem why it doesn't work on a 4 dimensional sphere for stuff which is kinda like triangles. It's different multiplication you are mentioning here. I can't do (1-sqrt(-5) x (1 + sqrt(-5) by putting some stones in a rectangle and…
You're approaching this with a hostile attitude, which is preventing you from understanding and/or addressing what other people are saying, and substituting (light) mockery for attempts to understand what others are saying. You're not going to learn anything or convince anybody of anything this way. The point of using the ring with the sqrt in it is to conveniently demonstrate that the FTA is non-obvious. Since it is…
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you mean to write Z[sqrt(-2)] instead of Z[sqrt(-3)]?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenstein_integer
Regardless, the fact that Z[sqrt(-n)] is a UFD for n = 1,2 but not for n >= 3 is indeed quite counter-intuitive. But Gowers isn't asking whether it's intuitive for Z[sqrt(-n)]. He's asking about the positive integers, and the positive integers have a very special well-ordering which respects the arithmetic operations and for which humans have quite a powerful intuition.
I maintain that Z[sqrt(-n)] is more different from Z than Gowers is letting on and that if you actually look at all the differences, rather doing the opposite and trying to make it seem similar to Z, you'll quickly realize why people feel that the FTA is not very bizarre for Z but it is for Z[sqrt(-n)].
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#124In math school we had a saying: "obvious means easy to prove". So the problem is about recognizing the difference between proofs and non-proofs. The hard but satisfying way to learn that difference is to start with axioms. Take some simple system of axioms that holds for Z, and try to prove the FTA from these axioms alone. Then check that the axioms aren't satisfied by Z[sqrt(-5)], or the even numbers, or some other…
Eh. I read the commentary here and tried proving the fundamental theorem of arithmetic. Here goes: Suppose some integer k has two different prime factorizations -- it is the product of some set of n primes raised to nonnegative integer powers, and also of some other set of m primes raised to nonnegative integer powers. Call those sets p_n and p_m. Observe that there is no prime number which is assigned a nonzero expo…
Others have taken potshots at this, and I'll join them. Look at the examples (in the article) of Z[sqrt(-5)]:
6 = (2, 0) x (3, 0) => p_n = {(2,0), (3,0)}
6 = (1, 1) x (1, -1) => p_m = {(1,1), (1,-1)}
So we have non-uniqueness of the factorization for this case. So we follow the logic of the excerpt above -- c=(2,0) is assigned a zero exponent in the second factorization, and indeed, p_n is congruent to 0 (mod c). Also, p_m is congruent to 0 (mod c). So where do we get the contradiction?The proof of this statement outlined below by makomk does establish this fairly well for the integers, and the argument cannot apply to Z[sqrt(-5)], but only because we can't define an ordering on Z[sqrt(-5)]. Z[i] _is_ a unique factorization domain (despite the lack of ordering), so fundamentally this proof is lacking in its ability to establish unique factorization for a particular ring. Though it does work for the integers, because of the well-ordered property, which is very non-obvious from your proof (and the whole article is about obviousness, not correctness, so this is relevant)
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#125I know I'm going up against a brilliant mathematician and Fields medalist here, but I find this article to be unenlightening. It seems that Gowers has glossed over something about the integers that's built incredibly deeply into our intuition about them when he talks about Z[sqrt(-5)]: > These numbers have various properties in common with the integers: you can add them and multiply them, there are identities for bot…
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#126Wouldn't multiple possible factorizations require numbers that both are and aren't divisible by certain numbers? If it's divisible by a number, the number must appear in its factorization and vice versa.
Who says "if it's divisible by a number, the number must appear in its factorization"? Why is that true? For example, 24 is divisible by 6, though 24 has the prime factorization 2 * 2 * 2 * 3, with no 6 to be found. "Right, but all the prime factors of 6 appear in the prime factorization of 24. If X is divisible by the prime p, then there is a unique prime factorization of X, which must include a factor of p", you ma…
No one.
If an integer is divisible by a prime then that number must appear in it's unique factorization.
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#127I know I'm going up against a brilliant mathematician and Fields medalist here, but I find this article to be unenlightening. It seems that Gowers has glossed over something about the integers that's built incredibly deeply into our intuition about them when he talks about Z[sqrt(-5)]: > These numbers have various properties in common with the integers: you can add them and multiply them, there are identities for bot…
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
No other prime is divisible by 3 than 3 itself and so on. And you can't ever get a number divisible by 3 by multiplying numbers that are not divisible by 3. (3n-1) * m mod 3 and (3n-2) * m mod 3 cycle predictably and never become zero unless m mod 3 = 0. The same principle should hold for every number.
The mod-cycling-predictably property also holds for composite numbers, while I think the "can't get a number divisible by 3 by multiplying numbers that are not divisible by 3" part relies on the fundamental theorem of arithmetic! (Otherwise, how do we know that you can't get a number divisible by 3 by multiplying numbers that are not divisible by 3, yet the same doesn't hold for 4? I think that's the fundmental theor…
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#129I know I'm going up against a brilliant mathematician and Fields medalist here, but I find this article to be unenlightening. It seems that Gowers has glossed over something about the integers that's built incredibly deeply into our intuition about them when he talks about Z[sqrt(-5)]: > These numbers have various properties in common with the integers: you can add them and multiply them, there are identities for bot…
Here's a stumper then: why do Z[sqrt(-1)] and Z[sqrt(-3)] have unique factorization but Z[sqrt(-5)] doesn't?
Re: Why isn’t the fundamental theorem of arithmetic obvious? (2011)
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who says "if it's divisible by a number, the number must appear in its factorization"? Why is that true? For example, 24 is divisible by 6, though 24 has the prime factorization 2 * 2 * 2 * 3, with no 6 to be found. "Right, but all the prime factors of 6 appear in the prime factorization of 24. If X is divisible by the prime p, then there is a unique prime factorization of X, which must include a factor of p", you ma…
No other prime is divisible by 3 than 3 itself and so on. And you can't ever get a number divisible by 3 by multiplying numbers that are not divisible by 3. (3n-1) * m mod 3 and (3n-2) * m mod 3 cycle predictably and never become zero unless m mod 3 = 0. The same principle should hold for every number.
The same is true for 5: it takes a little more time to check, since there are a few more possible remainders mod 5, but it happens to be true, and so you can indeed verify, that when you multiply non-multiples of 5 together, the result is also a non-multiple of 5.
And you can go ahead and check by brute force that this is true of 7, and 11, and 13 as well. Mod any of those, when you multiply nonzero values, you get a nonzero result. Any modulus this happens to be true of, you can sit down and verify that it's true of, by just checking all the finitely many cases.
But knowing it's true of the first few primes doesn't guarantee the same fact will be true of every other prime you check.
How do we know that this is in fact the case for every prime?
It's not true of every number, after all: 4 isn't divisible by 10, and 5 isn't divisible by 10, and yet 4 * 5 is divisible by 10. 10 doesn't have the property that it only divides a product if it divides one of the factors.
So why do primes have this property? Obviously, if 0 This is a non-obvious fact. This is where the Euclidean algorithm reasoning invoked above comes in. It doesn't just follow immediately.