Earlier quoted context omitted.
>In fact, there’s no single set of genes that all living things need in order to exist. ... They found that not a single gene is shared across all of life. Isn't the current theory that all life on Earth has a common ancestor? Wouldn't this point put that into question and introduce the possibility that life has developed multiple times independently of each other or would this lack of shared genes eventually appear…
I would guess that the earliest life didn't accidentally hit upon optimal or even reasonably good ways to do whatever is needed to reproduce. If that's the case, it isn't that unlikely that every evolutionary branch managed to improve (or discard) every part of the original machinery in some way.
In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
71–80 of 144 posts
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#72I'm afraid it's not the individual genes themselves that are important to life, but a specific combination of those genes. Further complicating the problem is that we have no idea how many genes comprise an "essential group". Is it a combination of 2 genes? 3, 5, 10? When you're talking about 175 unknown genes, the combination of all of these is a huge number. It's like finding a needle in a haystack the size of the…
Also, isn't there an issue of "gene" being something of an unnatural category? Nature doesn't provide a clean labeling of what part of the sequence is "a" gene, and the term historically existed (AIUI) to denote regions that the researcher found to have phenotypic relevance. So I'm not sure it's helpful to phrase a minimum in terms of "n genes". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene#Functional_definitions
That's Mendelian genetics. Geneticists focused on DNA as a physical molecule rather than a conceptual unit of inheritance use the same word to refer to a region of DNA that produces a protein.
They're both important concepts, but they're not the same concept.
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also, isn't there an issue of "gene" being something of an unnatural category? Nature doesn't provide a clean labeling of what part of the sequence is "a" gene, and the term historically existed (AIUI) to denote regions that the researcher found to have phenotypic relevance. So I'm not sure it's helpful to phrase a minimum in terms of "n genes". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene#Functional_definitions
> the term historically existed (AIUI) to denote regions that the researcher found to have phenotypic relevance That's Mendelian genetics. Geneticists focused on DNA as a physical molecule rather than a conceptual unit of inheritance use the same word to refer to a region of DNA that produces a protein. They're both important concepts, but they're not the same concept.
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the term historically existed (AIUI) to denote regions that the researcher found to have phenotypic relevance That's Mendelian genetics. Geneticists focused on DNA as a physical molecule rather than a conceptual unit of inheritance use the same word to refer to a region of DNA that produces a protein. They're both important concepts, but they're not the same concept.
Arguably, the production of a protein is nearly the smallest element of the observable characteristic of an organism produced by the interaction of its genotype with the environment, and thus sort of the fundamental unit of phenotype, so, from that perspective, they are exactly the same thing.
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#75Interesting work, but it reminds me of the famous "Could a biologist fix a radio?" paper [1]. The paper imagines biologists trying to determine what parts of a radio are essential using a similar trial and error technique. As you can imagine, this technique would lead to many erroneous conclusions, especially when paired with the "publish or perish" and "gold rush" mentalities so prevalent in academia. It makes you w…
> It makes you wonder if we are trying to understand biological systems with a fundamentally wrong approach. Got a better idea?
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#76TL;DR: Venter and his collaborators originally set out to design a stripped-down genome based on what scientists knew about biology. ... With the right tools finally in hand, the researchers designed a set of genetic blueprints for their minimal cell and then tried to build them. Yet “not one design worked," ... So the team took a different and more labor-intensive tack, replacing the design approach with trial and e…
this seems to support the idea that instead of evolving from a single ancestral life form, all beings were created with care
edit: or at least would seem to support the weaker assertion that singl life form ancestry evolutionary theory is inaccurate.
if this is logically incorrect please feel free to tell my why. downvotes are not for disagreement!
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#77Interesting work, but it reminds me of the famous "Could a biologist fix a radio?" paper [1]. The paper imagines biologists trying to determine what parts of a radio are essential using a similar trial and error technique. As you can imagine, this technique would lead to many erroneous conclusions, especially when paired with the "publish or perish" and "gold rush" mentalities so prevalent in academia. It makes you w…
First, when you can't manipulate things directly, it becomes more difficult to tweak systems slightly to learn how they work. This is especially true if you start with something made from things you don't understand, and for which you may not even have a complete catalog. The radio paper raises some issues and acknowledges these challenges, but then sort of glosses over them, saying, "it's complicated, but that's just because we don't understand and don't use the right language."
Second, biologists don't just use subtractive methods, they try to use additive approaches to complement and test the hypotheses that come out of "it's broken when I take this bit out." Biochemists also try to reproduce complex behaviors by mixing only the purified components of the system in question. Biochemists and biophysicists also often measure very precisely physical and chemical properties to mathematically define the behavior of biological components.
The point is biology is hard, and we barely know anything about it. We have to start with simple experiments that point us to what's important and then progressively do better defined experiments to figure out how it works in detail. The next step here is: now that we know what proteins are important, let's figure out how they work exactly. We couldn't have gotten there before trying to knock out as many parts as possible.
TL;DR: this isn't the wrong approach, it's the right one, and given the limitations of the system, realistically the only one we have at this stage. It's also only the first step, now we get to try other approaches on what we've learned.
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Isn't the current theory that all life on Earth has a common ancestor? Wouldn't this point put that into question" Not really. For one thing there's too much commonality across life in terms of things like the genetic code, i.e. what a sequence of genetic letters "means". The genetic code is arbitrary but essentially universal with minor variants. For another thing, the organisms now present can be separated from ea…
Deep down, somewhere in the genetic code, it still says "Mozilla (compatible)"
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#79TL;DR: Venter and his collaborators originally set out to design a stripped-down genome based on what scientists knew about biology. ... With the right tools finally in hand, the researchers designed a set of genetic blueprints for their minimal cell and then tried to build them. Yet “not one design worked," ... So the team took a different and more labor-intensive tack, replacing the design approach with trial and e…
I think this is a pop-science misunderstanding of what the authors were trying to say. They couldn't find a single unique "minimal set" of genes- but there are genes that we know all organisms share, like the rRNA genes and homologous core ribosomal proteins. All organisms will also require some kind tRNAs and their genes from some source, even if the tRNA genes themselves are not highly homologously conserved.
Re: In Newly Created Life-Form, a Major Mystery
#80TL;DR: Venter and his collaborators originally set out to design a stripped-down genome based on what scientists knew about biology. ... With the right tools finally in hand, the researchers designed a set of genetic blueprints for their minimal cell and then tried to build them. Yet “not one design worked," ... So the team took a different and more labor-intensive tack, replacing the design approach with trial and e…
> They found that not a single gene is shared across all of life I think this is a pop-science misunderstanding of what the authors were trying to say. They couldn't find a single unique "minimal set" of genes- but there are genes that we know all organisms share, like the rRNA genes and homologous core ribosomal proteins. All organisms will also require some kind tRNAs and their genes from some source, even if the t…