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Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

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Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#801

>this is stealing my life Really? Because I quite enjoy my "Wasted" time. I can't imagine what situation you could possibly be in that not only is it not enough for you not to "waste" time being happy, but you need other people to do the same. You are whats wrong with the world.

> You are whats wrong with the world.

Oh dear. Comments like this are definitely not allowed on Hacker News. Please (re-)read the site guidelines and don't post anything else like this!

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11948642 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#802
post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that disturbs me about this argument is that IMHO it's a slippery slope towards "back in my day, we didn't have this new-fangled stuff". We have to be extremely careful that our arguments have more substance than that. That requires a lot of introspection, to be honest. See, my grandparents worried that the new technology that my parents grew up with would somehow make them dumber (growing up with radio, pa…

I never said myself that tech per se will make kids dumber. What I say is, there should be measures governing their exposure, just like there are for other things. Just like an alcohol drinker and an alcohol addict are different, an internet user and an internet addict are different too. Just because some or most are not addicts, we can't dismiss the addiction altogether.

It's just that it seems a bit unfair to decry (or place undue burdens upon) the vast majority of responsible alcohol drinkers because we've found a few people who have an unhealthy relationship with it.

Recognizing potential dangers is a far cry from saying that there's a risk of "losing the century" because of easy access to technology and entertainment, and it strikes me as rather belittling to the younger generation.

Millennials and their children are still humans, after all, and are just as intelligent, motivated, and adaptable as every generation before them.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#803

It is not unlikely that you will never get to the same league as 'the inventors'. Most people are mediocre at everything they do and will always be. Most likely that includes you. We live in a culture that doesn't just tell everyone that they can easily outgrow mediocrity, no, this culture tells people they are above it from the very start. The following advice doesn't apply to geniuses or those who can be, but it ap…

This comment is so annoying - the perfect HN mix of pretentious and nihilist. If you really think that average people trying to create anything will make things worse, then you're probably fine with the entertainment-addiction cycle in the first place. Maybe you work for supercell.

Please don't respond to a bad comment by making a still worse comment. That just drags the thread down for everybody.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#804

It is not unlikely that you will never get to the same league as 'the inventors'. Most people are mediocre at everything they do and will always be. Most likely that includes you. We live in a culture that doesn't just tell everyone that they can easily outgrow mediocrity, no, this culture tells people they are above it from the very start. The following advice doesn't apply to geniuses or those who can be, but it ap…

Although I can imagine ways to read this comment as a positively intended one, (a) they're not obvious and (b) this is too far afield and doesn't belong in this thread. So we've detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11943951 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have assumed, given the results that PARC had, that it must have been that way. It's fantastic that I just got the answer to that question from... you. For my second point -- I definitely didn't mean optimization that way. I guess the word I meant to use was "targeted", as in "targeted for multi-core" but I see your point and respect it fully. I'm thrilled and deeply, deeply honored to have had this time wit…

The basic principle of both points above is that "problem finding" is the hardest thing in "real research", so a lot of things need to be done to help this ... (this is a very tough sell and even "explain" today -- almost everyone is brought up -- especially in schools -- to solve problems, rather than to actually find good ones) -- and virtually all funders today want to know what problems their fundees are going to…

Yes I know about Jonathan, which is why I mentioned him because I didn't want to publish the details of the group here and he's been something like an adviser to the group.

And that group is probably also the reasons for my views. I would never qualify to be in HARC and yet I don't just want to be content to scorn the state of the industry and state of the art. I see that there's additionally interesting research coming from garages and weekend projects. I feel that "problem finding" is somewhat interchangeable with "point of view" and that can come from surprising sources. Funding might be needed for the hardware but my own experience, for what it's worth, hasn't borne that out. The main component then is time, and while weekends aren't much, they'll have to suffice. The last step is to see if we can't get further as a community, giving that feedback so critical at PARC, and so that is why the group was created.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic principle of both points above is that "problem finding" is the hardest thing in "real research", so a lot of things need to be done to help this ... (this is a very tough sell and even "explain" today -- almost everyone is brought up -- especially in schools -- to solve problems, rather than to actually find good ones) -- and virtually all funders today want to know what problems their fundees are going to…

Yes I know about Jonathan, which is why I mentioned him because I didn't want to publish the details of the group here and he's been something like an adviser to the group. And that group is probably also the reasons for my views. I would never qualify to be in HARC and yet I don't just want to be content to scorn the state of the industry and state of the art. I see that there's additionally interesting research com…

Better to invent the electric light bulb than to cope with candles ... ?

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share some more seeds of thought on this? I sense you have better questions here than anything I can yet think to ask, myself :) I'll take a crack at some things: Actors are great patterns for encapsulating concurrency, but struggle in scaling -- because failure domains and persistence/forgetfulness on an intergalactic network aren't always lined up on the same borders as the actors? What are some of dimensio…

Just to bring up one possibly helpful analogy: Suppose we have a good model of atoms -- how much of this will be a good way to think about living systems? (Or should we come up with better and more useful architectural ideas that are a better fit to the scales we are trying to deal with -- hint: in biology, they are not like atomic physics or even much of chemistry ...) A point here is that trying to make atomic phys…

(preface: Riffing wildly here -- and may have gone in a different direction than your analogy's original intent --)

So, regardless of whether or not actors are a good pattern, what we need is scale-free patterns?

I can see how getting hung up on actors as a programming language feature would impede that.

How can we make the jump to scale-free, though?

- With actors, historically, we seem to have gravitated to talking about them in terms of a programming language feature or design problem -- while in some sense it implies "message passing", we usually implement the concept at scales of small bits of an in-memory process.

- With processes in the unixish family, we've made another domain with boundaries, but the granularity and kind of communication that are well-standardized at the edges of process aren't anywhere near what we expect from the languages we use to craft the interior of processes. And processes don't really compose, sadly.

- With linux cgroups, things finally go in a tree. Sorta. (It's rough trying to stack them in a way where someone arbitrarily deep in the tree can't decide to take an axe directly to the trunk and topple the whole thing). Like processes, we're still handling granularity of failure domains here (better than nothing), but not defining any meaningful or scalable shepherding of communication. And we still haven't left the machine.

I'm sold that we need some sort of architectural ideas that transcend these minutiae and are meaningful at the scale of the-internet-or-larger. But what patterns are actually scalable in terms of getting many systems to consensually interoperate on them?

I'm twitchy about trying to define One True Pure Form of message passing, or even intent passing, which seems to be a dreamier name that still converges at the same limits when implemented.

But I dream that there's a few true forms of concurrent coordination pattern that really simplify distributed and asynchronous systems, and perhaps are scale-free. Perhaps we haven't hit them yet. Words like "actor" and "agent" (divorced of e.g. programming language library) sometimes seem close -- are there other concepts you think are helpful here?

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#808
This is one of the best threads HN has ever seen and we couldn't be more thrilled to have had such an interesting and wide-ranging discussion. I know I'm not the only one who will be going back over the wealth of insights, ideas, and pointers here in the weeks to come.

Alan, a huge and heartfelt thanks from all of us. The quality and quantity (over 250 posts!) of what you shared with the community surpassed all expectations from the outset and just kept going. What an amazing gift! Thank you for giving us such a rich opportunity to learn.

(All are welcome to continue the discussion as appropriate but the AMA part is officially done now.)

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to bring up one possibly helpful analogy: Suppose we have a good model of atoms -- how much of this will be a good way to think about living systems? (Or should we come up with better and more useful architectural ideas that are a better fit to the scales we are trying to deal with -- hint: in biology, they are not like atomic physics or even much of chemistry ...) A point here is that trying to make atomic phys…

(preface: Riffing wildly here -- and may have gone in a different direction than your analogy's original intent --) So, regardless of whether or not actors are a good pattern, what we need is scale-free patterns? I can see how getting hung up on actors as a programming language feature would impede that. How can we make the jump to scale-free, though? - With actors, historically, we seem to have gravitated to talking…

One of many problems with trying to use Unix as "modules" and "objects" is that they have things that aren't objects (like strings, etc) and this makes it difficult for arranging various scales and extensions of use.

It's not so much "scale-free" but this idea I mentioned elsewhere of "find the most difficult thing you have to do really nicely" and then see how it scales down (scaling up nicely rarely even barely possible). This was what worked with Smalltalk -- I came up with about 20 examples that had to be "nice", and some of them were "large" (for their day). We -- especially Dan Ingalls and Ted Kaehler -- were able to find ways to make the bigger more general things small and efficient enough to work uniformly over all the scales we had to deal with.

In other parts of this AMA I've mentioned some of the problems when extended to the whole world (but go for "galactic" to help thinking!)

Almost nothing in today's languages or OSs are in the current state of "biology".

However, several starts could be to relax from programming by message sending (a tough prospect in the large) to programming by message receiving, and in particular to program by intent/meaning negotiation.

And so forth.

Linda was a great idea of the 80s, what is the similar idea scaled for 40 years later? (It won't look like Linda, so don't start your thinking from there ...)

Etc.

Re: Alan Kay has agreed to do an AMA today

#810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the "image" idea is more powerful than the "data" idea. However since PC revolution, the mainstream seemed to take on the "data" path for whatever technical or non-technical reasons. How do you envision the "coming back" of image path via either bypassing the data path or merging with it in a not so faraway future?

Over all of history, there is no accounting for what "the mainstream" decides to believe and do. Many people (wrongly) think that "Darwinian processes" optimize, but any biologist will point out that they only "tend to fit to the environment". So if your environment is weak or uninteresting ... This also obtains for "thinking" and it took a long time for humans to even imagine thinking processes that could be stronge…

It seems that barriers to entry in hardware innovation are getting higher and higher due to high risk industrial efforts. In the meantime barriers to entry in software are getting lower and lower due to improvement of toolings in both software and hardware.

On the other hand due to the exponential growth of software dependency, "bad ideas" in software development are getting harder and harder to remove and the social cost of "green field" software innovation is also getting higher and higher.

How do we solve these issues in the coming future?

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