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“PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

seafile.de

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Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#321

Post by lmm »

woodman wrote: post #248
lmm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't this similar to the idea of banning web browsers, as they render HTML which, as we all know, can be used to write text ( plaintext! ) inciting terrorism? And it sometimes is. Are you using a browser right now? Search engines and hosting services already monitor for illegal content. Reasonable people can disagree over whether requiring a filesharing service to monitor for illegal content is excessively onerous…

> slippery-slope fallacy ... sound absurd by taking it to a far enough extreme. Assuming that you actually value logic, given your choice of words, how do you not see that the magnitude of the absurdity is directly related a faulty premise - a fallacy? Live and let live * [1..1000] = nice .. nice Kill at random * [1..1000] = bad .. horrific So no, not every policy can be made to sound absurd.

"Live and let live" can absolutely be made to sound absurd by taking it to the extreme. Does the amount of taking-far-enough needed to make something sound absurd vary? Sure. But the post I replied to was doing a whole lot of taking-far-enough.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#322

Post by tremon »

tomp wrote: post #275
Arnt wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year I saw a customer (not at Seafile) who accessed our (paid) service from 20 different countries on the same day. Do you think that customer travelled to all those countries on that day? Do you think we were wrong to look for such globetrotting customers? Do you think we were wrong, or Seafile would be wrong, to look for customers who share their account with their hundred best friends?

Yes, you were wrong. Maybe the user was just lending the files to his/her best friends? Or some other kind of fair use... You can't just generalize that all file-sharing is illegal.

Fair use doesn't even enter the question. How do you know the customer didn't own the copyright on his files, and was well within his rights to share the files with anyone of his choosing?

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#323

Post by tremon »

mrgoldenbrown wrote: post #255
Matt3o12_ wrote: post #116

I wonder if legal action can be taken against PayPal for demanding this kind of information. PayPal blackmailed them into breaking a law (they didn't break it but they suffered financial loss from not doing it). If I told a customer who absolutely depends on my business to harass/attack somebody, I would certainly hold liable as well.

Or can PayPal take legal action against them for violating ToS? Did they properly disclose they were a file sharing site (as required by PayPal) before signing up to take payments? If they can't meet PayPal's ToS, they shouldn't have signed up. [Paypal sucks, but this doesn't seem like a cause for legal remedy]

ToS do not trump the law in Europe, so no. If a company is offering services in Europe with terms that contradict local law, the terms are void.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#324

Post by wastedhours »

Bartweiss wrote: post #229
wastedhours wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - for a great deal many people, PayPal is preferable to paying directly to the seller. Until another branded payment provider has that level of mindshare across the general populace, and seen as being secure and trustworthy from twentysomethings to grandparents, then they wont be beaten.

But will companies continue to run the risk of letting Paypal ban their accounts (and often, freeze their funds in the process)? I can't imagine a consumer revolt, but at a certain point "makes your users feel secure" is outweighed by "makes you terrified you'll lose your money". I suspect that something like Stripe or Square will eventually sell companies on a "we won't screw you over" narrative and start to compete…

Probably. At this stage, the integration with PayPal is as much for the user's benefit as it is the company's (Stripe has an easier integration path, and is elegant from a back end perspective), and it isn't the customers concern that a supplier might have their account frozen. We're looking at this from a company/developer perspective, but that's not the driver for it any more.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#325

Post by mvanvoorden »

corobo wrote: post #219
RubyPinch wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unless the "corruption" is reversible by the torrent client, which it would be

If the corruption is reversible then the people doing the checking can also reverse it. They'll have both the corrupt version and the reverse-fixed version and just have to check an extra hash per thing they're scanning for

I think that parent means that between torrent clients, the original file is being transferred, but the version that is saved on the hard drive (or Dropbox) is slightly altered, for example by adding/changing a random number of bytes.

When the file is opened in a torrent client, it will recognize these changes, revert them (in memory) and seed the original file.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#326

Post by buro9 »

benevol wrote: post #117
nakodari wrote: post #101

Another victim of Paypal here. I run Jumpshare, a file sharing and collaboration service for creative professionals. This is what Paypal sent us: "May 8, 2016: When you signed up for your PayPal account, you agreed to our User Agreement and Acceptable Use Policy. Because some of your recent transactions violated this policy, we've had to permanently limit your account. Please remove any references to PayPal from your…

Having read during the last few years about the endless horror stories businesses have endured with PayPal, I honestly don't understand why anyone would still use PayPal when there clearly are alternatives (be that US companies like Stripe or EU companies like Paymill).

Because by offering PayPal one usually sees an increase in overall revenue than just by offering credit card payments alone.

Money talks. If revenue goes up, then people use PayPal. It's that simple.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#327

Post by tehrei »

dredmorbius wrote: post #320
Canutesun wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulation has done a great job in several industries of concentrating the industries into a few major players, because it is incredibly difficult to comply for new/small companies. Banking and finance is one, telecom is another.

Telecoms got itself monopolised just fine before regulations came along. AT&T sealed in the concept of operating as a regulated monopoly. But that goes back to 1913. There are industries which tend naturally toward monopolies, with transport, communications, broadcast, and software among them. There are also industries which tend naturally away from monopolies, such as sandwich shops, cement providers, and laundromat…

Would you say that industries with heavy network effects tend towards monopolies, while those without tend to produce more competition?

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#328

Post by corobo »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #270
Arnt wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year I saw a customer (not at Seafile) who accessed our (paid) service from 20 different countries on the same day. Do you think that customer travelled to all those countries on that day? Do you think we were wrong to look for such globetrotting customers? Do you think we were wrong, or Seafile would be wrong, to look for customers who share their account with their hundred best friends?

Yes, you were, of course, it's none of your damn business what your customers use your product for as long as they pay for it and it's not obviously illegal. If you are concerned about resource usage, limit the resources that you sell per account, and then enforce that limit if you like, but don't stick your nose into other people's lives. And I must say I find it particularly strange that you seem to find it somehow…

How can it be "not obviously illegal" if you're not checking. Side note, piracy is illegal in a lot of countries.

If my account was accessed from 20 different countries in a day you can be damn well sure I'd want to be given a heads up too, as it's likely my account has been compromised.

Re: “PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as customers’ files”

#330

Post by woodman »

lmm wrote: post #321
woodman wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slippery-slope fallacy ... sound absurd by taking it to a far enough extreme. Assuming that you actually value logic, given your choice of words, how do you not see that the magnitude of the absurdity is directly related a faulty premise - a fallacy? Live and let live * [1..1000] = nice .. nice Kill at random * [1..1000] = bad .. horrific So no, not every policy can be made to sound absurd.

"Live and let live" can absolutely be made to sound absurd by taking it to the extreme. Does the amount of taking-far-enough needed to make something sound absurd vary? Sure. But the post I replied to was doing a whole lot of taking-far-enough.

> ...needed to make something sound absurd vary? Sure.

That is your point, not mine. I'm saying that you're focusing on the wrong part of the equation. Imagine a machine with two variables that you have influence over, calibration error and runtime. You are suggesting short runtimes in order to minimize the impact of calibration error, I'm suggesting recalibration.

I'd love to hear an extreme for "Live and let live", but I'm guessing that whatever scenario you can imagine is based on a faulty premise like "How can we wreak revenge without a death penalty?!".

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